doj working to meet 45 day requirement

safcrkr · Dec 4, 2011

wiscollector said:
Persons not using a form of delivery confirm or a means of positive receipt dont have much of a leg to stand on when counting their days.

If you dont have a receipt, DOJ could and can claim that the 45 days starts when your check was deposited in their bank.

Yes we all know thats bull.....BUT without a receipt, it would be hard to prove otherwise.

Unless of course your app is stamped by DOJ at some point. Even then your app could be stamped days later than it was actually received.

If you have a receipt, you are gold and nothing DOJ says will over ride it.

If your USPS receipt is 3 days prior to a DOJ stamp, then DOJ cant use their stamp date as the 45 start date.

If your envelope contained 5 sheets of paper or more, you were likely over the single 44 cent stamp postage. A copy of training, 3 pages of application, and an affirmation sheet if necessary makes 5. Because I had 6 (those 5 sheets and also sent copy of DL), my postage was 64 cents. I paid at the P.O. counter (didn't use stamps) and asked for a receipt, with 9 digit zip-code of destination mailed to. P.O. box is last 4 digits of 9 digit zip, which gives me proof of mailing a $.64 envelope to 53707-7130 (DOJs P.O. box), at 9:03 AM, 11/1/11.

I have copy of check, stamped at DOJ's bank (U.S. Bank) on 11/14, same date as so many others who mailed on 1st or 2nd day. I cannot prove when they received it, but I got a pretty good case that DOJ had mine no later than the 3rd.

Besides all that CYA stuff... because of the deadline, DOJ is required by law to keep track of all "dates received" of all applications. They cannot even attempt to meet any deadline if they do not have all that info. They must have on file the date an app was received, if they cashed your check (which proves that they do indeed have it). I DO NOT think they'll "lie" about anybody's deadline claim. That would be illegal, and we are talking about the "Department of Justice". (NOT sarcasm)

davegran · Dec 4, 2011

It would be interesting to know how long it takes our banks and credit unions to clear a check from DOJ and thus increase perceived processing time. I will call my CU on Monday to find out. Although in the beginning, they weren't waiting for the checks to clear, according to my experience.

Forms submitted: 11-1
License issued: 11-5
Check cashed: 11-8
License received: 11-9
License Number: 1100's

safcrkr · Dec 4, 2011

.. if it's any help...

davegran said:
It would be interesting to know how long it takes our banks and credit unions to clear a check from DOJ and thus increase perceived processing time. I will call my CU on Monday to find out. Although in the beginning, they weren't waiting for the checks to clear, according to my experience.

Forms submitted: 11-1
License issued: 11-5
Check cashed: 11-8
License received: 11-9
License Number: 1100's

My wife has worked at a bank for 20+ years. She knows how this works way better than I do. She looked at my check (a copy of both front & rear is available in our on-line banking account at her bank) and she "deciphered" the stamps on the back. There's two... the one DOJ puts on there endorsing the check, and the stamp from the bank (where deposited) when they receive it and enter it into their system. This is the one that tells you exactly when it was deposited. For example sake... the dated "stamp of deposit" on my check is from U.S. Bank, and was on 11/14/11, and it "cleared" my bank (funds were withdrawn from my account electronically) the next day, but didn't get posted to our account until after close of business, on 11/15/11 (she checked before leaving work at 4:30, wasn't cleared yet. I checked again later that day, after dinner from home computer, and it was). She said that one business day is typical, but not all banks are as fast... some might take one more business day in posting to your account and withdrawing the funds. (fund withdrawal is the "clearing" process).

edit to add: if you use the same bank as the one where deposited, it usually "clears" the same day if it's deposited early enough in the day. So anyone using U.S. Bank likely has the same day for deposit and the clearing process.

safcrkr · Dec 4, 2011

davegran said:
It would be interesting to know how long it takes our banks and credit unions to clear a check from DOJ and thus increase perceived processing time. I will call my CU on Monday to find out. Although in the beginning, they weren't waiting for the checks to clear, according to my experience.

Forms submitted: 11-1
License issued: 11-5
Check cashed: 11-8
License received: 11-9
License Number: 1100's

Dave, in looking at your numbers, your license was issued on a Saturday. Is the 8th (following Tuesday) the date your check "cleared" your bank (posted to your account), or was it deposited that day? If it was cleared on the 8th, it was likely deposited by DOJ on monday the 7th... which would be the earliest possible deposit day after your Saturday issuing. If the 8th was "clearing" day, it could've even been deposited on Friday, the 4th. (no transactions go through the system on weekends).

Kc.38 · Dec 4, 2011

Just because they say they are working 7 days a week does not mean that the whole crew is working 7 days a week. Maybe just the cleaning crew is in on the weekends. Also maybe they split the crew and you work 4 on and 3 off and so on.

davegran · Dec 4, 2011

safcrkr said:
Dave, in looking at your numbers, your license was issued on a Saturday. Is the 8th (following Tuesday) the date your check "cleared" your bank (posted to your account), or was it deposited that day? If it was cleared on the 8th, it was likely deposited by DOJ on monday the 7th... which would be the earliest possible deposit day after your Saturday issuing. If the 8th was "clearing" day, it could've even been deposited on Friday, the 4th. (no transactions go through the system on weekends).

My point was that my numbers seemed to indicate that they issued my license (11-5) before the check cleared (11-8). They don't appear to be following that practice any more.

paul@paul-fisher.com · Dec 4, 2011

davegran said:
My point was that my numbers seemed to indicate that they issued my license (11-5) before the check cleared (11-8). They don't appear to be following that practice any more.

I believe they do not tie the processing of the license to the clearing of the check. It's just that they had so few applications at 1st that the licenses were printed before the checks cleared. Nowadays, they deposit the checks before the background check and the background check is taking the time.

ccwinstructor · Dec 4, 2011

Likely different people opening the application than the ones proccessing them

paul@paul-fisher.com said:
I believe they do not tie the processing of the license to the clearing of the check. It's just that they had so few applications at 1st that the licenses were printed before the checks cleared. Nowadays, they deposit the checks before the background check and the background check is taking the time.

I expect that they have people dedicated to opening the applications, sorting out the checks, money orders, etc. for deposit, may be doing a preliminary check of the paperwork, then handing the applications off to others to do the criminal records check.

That would account for some of the differences in times.

There is likely a bin for those that have problems or need to be reviewed. Those are likley set aside and take longer.

smithman · Dec 4, 2011

At last, civil servants are actually putting in 8 hours of work.

oak1971 · Dec 5, 2011

Still waiting on my replacement license. The original has an incorrect middle name. :banghead:

HandyHamlet · Dec 5, 2011

Told ya you should have just legally changed your name. That would have been much easier...

:banghead:

oak1971 · Dec 5, 2011

HandyHamlet said:
Told ya you should have just legally changed your name. That would have been much easier...

:banghead:

I really don't want an alias...sounds criminal.

MKEgal · Dec 6, 2011

safcrkr said:
If your envelope contained 5 sheets of paper or more, you were likely over the single 44 cent stamp postage. A copy of training, 3 pages of application, and an affirmation sheet if necessary makes 5.

Application + affirmation or training could be done on 2 pages front/back.
Having both affirmation + training would give 3 pages, with one blank.

because of the deadline, DOJ is required by law to keep track of all "dates received" of all applications.

So... people who have had applications returned: did anything they sent back to you have a date stamp on it?
According to this thread & this PDF, DOJ is requesting more staff so they will, at some time in the future, be able to scan all the paper applications. [See pgs 6 & 10 of the PDF.] So for right now, they don't have any proof of when things were received or exactly what was on the paperwork they returned to people.

That would be illegal, and we are talking about the "Department of Justice". (NOT sarcasm)

With everything else they've pulled, you still think they'll straighten up & fly right?

safcrkr · Dec 6, 2011

MKEgal said:
Application + affirmation or training could be done on 2 pages front/back.
Having both affirmation + training would give 3 pages, with one blank.

So... people who have had applications returned: did anything they sent back to you have a date stamp on it?
According to this thread & this PDF, DOJ is requesting more staff so they will, at some time in the future, be able to scan all the paper applications. [See pgs 6 & 10 of the PDF.] So for right now, they don't have any proof of when things were received or exactly what was on the paperwork they returned to people.

With everything else they've pulled, you still think they'll straighten up & fly right?

If that's true, then the whole notion of any deadline is redundant and useless. If I mailed in on 11/25 I would not have a legitimate complaint until about early January. If I mailed on 11/1, I would have a legitimate complaint in about 9 days. If they do not have the ability to determine which is which, or which came when, then they have no ability to determine legitimacy of complaints about the deadline neither. Then what I've been saying about this being a big screw-up is starting to look more correct... is it not? It would signify a total disregard by DOJ in attempting to comply with the law as written, because the deadline would not mean anything if they did not keep track of when it began for each applicant. Even I don't believe it's that bad.

btw... IMO, putting stuff on both front and back would be an unnecessary complication. Not knowing their "filing" system, what if differant items went into differant spots, and they were both on the same sheet of paper? I personally didn't want to guess how they did things, and submitted each item on it's own sheet of paper. The only unnecessary sheet of paper I sent was a copy of DL. I had it printed out before the app was released when I did not know if it was needed or not, and must have accidently stuck it in there... because after I sealed my envelope, it was gone from my desk. I did know they needed my DL number, but after what they pulled on the training regs, I didn't know if they'd just take my word on my DL #, or needed verification. As they didn't need it, I'm sure they've got a trash can handy.

They cashed my check 24 days ago... I think my app was accepted as I sent it. So I wasted 20 cents.

edit: the ability to scan all paper documents would allow all records to be stored electronically, rather than consuming a hundred or so filing cabinets full of folders, full of paper. I don't think that has anything to do with dating the apps as they're received. Dating the envelopes could be as simple as running a differant color felt-tip marker across the top of all envelopes in a mail tray. Differant colors, or combination of colors, could signify a specific date. Not too sophisticated, but if they know which is which (which a monkey can be trained to recognize), they then could type in date received as they enter an app in their computer, or hand write on app when they proof-read it. How long does it take to scribble 11-1, or 11-25 on a sheet of paper?

Fast Ed · Dec 7, 2011

I got mine back

I got my application back for lack of affirmation of my Fl and UT licenses. There was nothing to indicate any dates of receipt. I mailed my application on the 3rd of Nov. and got the stuff returned to me last week. I was instructed to send it back to an individual and not just to the main address and mailed it back on Dec. 3rd. It will be interesting to see if my clock started on the 3rd of Nov. or the 3rd of Dec.

Fast Ed

Herr Heckler Koch · Dec 7, 2011

no longer than 45 days, after receiving a complete application under section 175.60(7) of the statutes, as created by this act, for a license to carry a concealed weapon, do one of the following:

safcrkr · Dec 7, 2011

Fast Ed said:
I got my application back for lack of affirmation of my Fl and UT licenses. There was nothing to indicate any dates of receipt. I mailed my application on the 3rd of Nov. and got the stuff returned to me last week. I was instructed to send it back to an individual and not just to the main address and mailed it back on Dec. 3rd. It will be interesting to see if my clock started on the 3rd of Nov. or the 3rd of Dec.

Fast Ed

As per the statute mentioned in the post after yours, the 45 days starts upon reception of completed application. No date received was stamped or written on it because technically it hasn't been received yet, as it was not complete. I'm betting your check was returned too.

doj working to meet 45 day requirement

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