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Thread: Carry on (K-12) school grounds

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    Carry on (K-12) school grounds

    If i am reading this correctly you can lock you gun unloaded in a nano box and still be legal. (18.2-308.1)Why wife works at a school and due to events in her life has decided to begin ocing while we wait for her chp. Any info would help from those that understand this legal fog better than i. thanks

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipnshatter View Post
    If i am reading this correctly you can lock you gun unloaded in a nano box and still be legal. (18.2-308.1)Why wife works at a school and due to events in her life has decided to begin ocing while we wait for her chp. Any info would help from those that understand this legal fog better than i. thanks
    You may want to check her employment contract first as most school employees are prohibited from having guns on school grounds, despite what any law may say.
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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Correct, though the container doesn't have to be "locked", merely, "closed".

    Also correct that an employment contract may limit possession otherwise, though the penalty is getting fired, not going to jail.

    Also note that Virginia law (which I believe pre-empts federal law to the contrary) having to do with possession of firearms on school property gives broader rights than the amendments to the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968 referred to as the "Gun Free School Zones Act" (thank you, Senator Lautenberg, D. of N.J.). That statute prohibits any possession at all within a thousand feet of the outer perimeter of the grounds of any school (K-12, public or private) unless one have a license or permit that requires a background check conducted by state agencies.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    As long as it is in a "secured" container it can be loaded too. If you use a lock box I suggest getting a cable lock and securing it to something in the car so that any opportunist thief doesn't find it and take it. A center console or glovebox work too and I wish they made more lockable gloveboxes these days. :-)

    I don't have a trunk on my explorer so I use a lock box that is cabled securely to store guns and additional ammo. If I am going to be out of the car for any length of time I want my gun secured and locked.

    If her "employment" contract doesn't allow her to have a gun she can always choose to park off school property.

    I wish we could clean up the law and get rid of GFSZ totally. Some potential work by VCDL may help this year but schools are still their "special" places in the hearts and minds of the ignorant masses.

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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    I don't have a trunk on my explorer so I use a lock box that is cabled securely to store guns and additional ammo. If I am going to be out of the car for any length of time I want my gun secured and locked.
    Where do you put the lock box then? Under a seat?
    Just curious. I've been looking at them and wondering if that's where people put them or do you hide it somewhere else and use the cable for securing it to the vehicle. Don't want to derail this convo but would appreciate input.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-gal View Post
    Where do you put the lock box then? Under a seat?
    Just curious. I've been looking at them and wondering if that's where people put them or do you hide it somewhere else and use the cable for securing it to the vehicle. Don't want to derail this convo but would appreciate input.
    I keep mine under the front seat, cabled to the frame and seat.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I would expect a few bills to come out about this for this session.

    - Make carry on school grounds with criminal intent a felony but without criminal intent a misdemeanor
    - Allow carry on K-12 by CHP holders (before I get beat up by the P4P crew, don;t shoot the messenger)
    - Allow carry on K-12 like any other local government property
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Just a broad question, I don't have time to think about it right now...

    Are there ANY other categories of law out there, other than gun laws, where completely benign actions on the part of an individual can result in criminal convictions?

    What other area of law is like this? Are there any?

    How in the world did we ever let it happen with guns?

    TFred

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Just a broad question
    So only females can answer?
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Lockbox

    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-gal View Post
    Where do you put the lock box then? Under a seat?
    Just curious. I've been looking at them and wondering if that's where people put them or do you hide it somewhere else and use the cable for securing it to the vehicle. Don't want to derail this convo but would appreciate input.
    I keep mine in the far back since it is too large to fit under my seat. Up front would be much more convenient but I wanted a larger one to carry a car gun plus ammo and then be able to accept whatever I was carrying. I cabled it to a cargo ring in back. Neither the box or cable will stop a determined criminal but should stop an opportunistic thief or a smash & grab crook.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    This should be our sound-bite/slogan for this legislative effort:

    It should be no more of a crime to carry a gun onto school grounds than it is to carry a pack of cigarettes into a restaurant.

    If I do say so myself, that is an excellent analogy, which makes the point quite clear. It is possible to commit crimes with either a gun at a school, OR with a cigarette in a restaurant... why does the law dictate the mere possession of one a crime but not the other?

    TFred

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Just a broad question, I don't have time to think about it right now...

    Are there ANY other categories of law out there, other than gun laws, where completely benign actions on the part of an individual can result in criminal convictions?

    What other area of law is like this? Are there any?

    How in the world did we ever let it happen with guns?

    TFred
    Well saying words like bomb ​in an airport can get your orifices raped by TSA! I would strongly like to see the criminal intent a mandatory requirement for any crime. Without it carrying a gun on school should not even be a misdemeanor.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 12-04-2011 at 10:46 PM.

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    Regular Member Brian Reynolds's Avatar
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    New VA Gen Assembly

    Ed is correct--Ed and I worked hard to get Dick Black back into a position to directly and positively effect gun rights in Virginia as he did in so many previous years. Along with Marshall, Ramadan and Minchew we know there are already plans in place for those Ed mentioned and others such as pulling authority away from universities to enact erroneous gun regulations on campus with the force of [civil] law and moving anything gun related under the General Assembly (simply modifying preemption to include universities) and out of the hands of liberal policy makers. Of course, this ultimately relies on us voting the proper folks in and making sure those in office keep gun rights, deregulation, etc., on the side of Constitutional obligation.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Just a broad question, I don't have time to think about it right now...

    Are there ANY other categories of law out there, other than gun laws, where completely benign actions on the part of an individual can result in criminal convictions?

    What other area of law is like this? Are there any?

    How in the world did we ever let it happen with guns?


    TFred
    I still don't know the answer to the first part, but sadly, I do know the answer to how it got like this.

    The antis very much do believe that mere possession of a gun is a criminal act. They lie loudly and often and say that is not how they feel, but they do. It naturally develops from this core belief that anything you do with a gun is therefore a crime, even absent any malicious intent. It got this way because we (the collective we) were asleep for too long, and they managed to convince enough legislators to go their way.

    TFred

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Just a broad question, I don't have time to think about it right now...

    Are there ANY other categories of law out there, other than gun laws, where completely benign actions on the part of an individual can result in criminal convictions?

    What other area of law is like this? Are there any?

    How in the world did we ever let it happen with guns?

    TFred
    Like wearing a mask in public??

    I'll let someone more familiar with this law fill in the specifics...

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Like wearing a mask in public??

    I'll let someone more familiar with this law fill in the specifics...
    Case law already requires intent "to deceive" for this James.
    The problem is most cops don't know or care about case law and neither do Magistrates,

    Second problem is why should deceiving with no other intent be illegal.

    For those Bolling fans, he told me "Law Enforcement always uses good judgement in these things". That's when Bill and I parted ways.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    I would expect a few bills to come out about this for this session.

    - Make carry on school grounds with criminal intent a felony but without criminal intent a misdemeanor
    - Allow carry on K-12 by CHP holders (before I get beat up by the P4P crew, don;t shoot the messenger)
    - Allow carry on K-12 like any other local government property
    There are three items there and I have discussed this with VCDL BTW. Only item 2 is P4P ...right now at least.

    Item 1 is good.

    Item 2 is a very fine line but unless the Bill gets changed to make it even more P4P, the overall good outweighs the bad so it rates a neutral.

    Item 3 is good.

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Also note that Virginia law (which I believe pre-empts federal law to the contrary) having to do with possession of firearms on school property gives broader rights than the amendments to the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968 referred to as the "Gun Free School Zones Act" (thank you, Senator Lautenberg, D. of N.J.). That statute prohibits any possession at all within a thousand feet of the outer perimeter of the grounds of any school (K-12, public or private) unless one have a license or permit that requires a background check conducted by state agencies.
    If you read the code, the permit must be issued by the state/locality where the school is located as well...

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    I would expect a few bills to come out about this for this session.

    - Make carry on school grounds with criminal intent a felony but without criminal intent a misdemeanor
    - Allow carry on K-12 by CHP holders (before I get beat up by the P4P crew, don;t shoot the messenger)
    - Allow carry on K-12 like any other local government property
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    There are three items there and I have discussed this with VCDL BTW. Only item 2 is P4P ...right now at least.

    Item 1 is good.

    Item 2 is a very fine line but unless the Bill gets changed to make it even more P4P, the overall good outweighs the bad so it rates a neutral.

    Item 3 is good.
    Strictly speaking, even if Item 2 weren't P4P under state law, a Virginia permit would still be required under the GFSZA. We might all want to get that changed, but until it is, I'm sure none of us would dare advocate breaking the law, right?
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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