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Thread: Question for a LEO...

  1. #1
    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    Question for a LEO...

    Although I pray to God I will never be forced to shoot or kill someone, what should I do/expect when LEOs arrive on the scene?

  2. #2
    Regular Member tletourneau's Avatar
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    Depending on circumstance and personality expect to be interrogated and prepare to say the following:

    "My name is and I refuse to answer any questions without my lawyer present. May I contact my lawyer?"

    Repeat as necessary until your lawyer is present and then listen to him. Diarrhea of the mouth is your worst enemy in that situation.

    Sorry - I should of read the title, I'm not a LEO so take it for what it's worth.

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    Last edited by tletourneau; 12-04-2011 at 02:33 AM.
    Thanks,

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    There is a fella named Massad Ayoob who has some ideas on how to handle such a situation. He's a retired police captain who has been teaching armed self-defense to citizens for many years. He wrote one of the first books for citizens In the Gravest Extreme. He may have a video on YouTube on this.

    Also, watch the following video about talking to police by Prof. James Duane of Regent University Law School: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    I actually have a few lawyers in the family, so I've got the "shut the hell up" part down pat. Sorry, I guess I could have stated a few specific questions:
    -Will I always get arrested/detained, or will they do interviews on-scene and file the report?
    -If the BG is only injured, should I keep my firearm on him until LEOs arrive?
    -Should I check BG for vitals, or not touch him at all?
    -After I call 911, should I attempt to call my lawyer (family member) immediately so he will be on the phone when LEOs arrive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Also, watch the following video about talking to police by Prof. James Duane of Regent University Law School: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
    I actually came across this 2 days ago. Great advice and info. Just not really directed towards firearms, which is the focus I needed, since LEOs seem to have a general negative view of us having them. Kinda scary how they can take a few words and skew it to imply something different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    SNIP Sorry, I guess I could have stated a few specific questions:
    -Will I always get arrested/detained, or will they do interviews on-scene and file the report?
    -If the BG is only injured, should I keep my firearm on him until LEOs arrive?
    -Should I check BG for vitals, or not touch him at all?
    -After I call 911, should I attempt to call my lawyer (family member) immediately so he will be on the phone when LEOs arrive?
    I don't think there is any set answer.

    Whether you are arrested probably depends on the cops who respond to the scene.

    Realize also that every justified defensive gun use has its own set of circumstances and evidence. With any luck, there will be enough evidence to prove your gun use was justified. But, what if there really isn't much objective evidence? Just your word? You can see how some cops might give you the benefit of the doubt, while other cops might just automatically arrest you and let the prosecutor sort it out.

    Do keep in mind that when you tell a cop "I shot that guy in self-defense", your first words are "I shot that guy". So, you just gave a statement that you are the reason that body is now dead. This is why you want to be really careful about what you do and say.

    Many, including Ayoob, recommend a very brief, bare-bones statement. Something along the lines of, "Officer, that man there (point to body) threatened me with that knife there (point to knife) and demanded my wallet. I was in fear for my life, and shot him in self-defense. I will make a complete statement within 72 hours after talking to my attorney."

    Others will suggest saying not even that much. I can see their point. I'm inclined to make it clear I am the victim, and then politely repeat as needed that I don't want to say anything else until after I talk with my attorney. But, that is just me. You will have to make your own decision. I just recommend gathering plenty of info before deciding; really read up on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    SNIP I actually came across [Prof James Duane video] 2 days ago. Great advice and info. Just not really directed towards firearms, which is the focus I needed, since LEOs seem to have a general negative view of us having them. Kinda scary how they can take a few words and skew it to imply something different.
    Oh, sure it is. Notice how his examples spanned a choke-hold attorney, an alleged sex-seeking Senator, a dog-fighting sponsor, an insider trader, a performance enhancer athlete, and a babysitter. The principles hold true no matter the underlying subject.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    I actually have a few lawyers in the family, so I've got the "shut the hell up" part down pat. Sorry, I guess I could have stated a few specific questions:
    -Will I always get arrested/detained, or will they do interviews on-scene and file the report?
    -If the BG is only injured, should I keep my firearm on him until LEOs arrive?
    -Should I check BG for vitals, or not touch him at all?
    -After I call 911, should I attempt to call my lawyer (family member) immediately so he will be on the phone when LEOs arrive?
    I appreciate your posing these questions to law enforcement officers.

    It will be interesting to read their responses.
    Proud Veteran ~ U.S. Army / Army Reserve

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  8. #8
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    "Sorry, I guess I could have stated a few specific questions:
    -Will I always get arrested/detained, or will they do interviews on-scene and file the report?
    -If the BG is only injured, should I keep my firearm on him until LEOs arrive?
    -Should I check BG for vitals, or not touch him at all?
    -After I call 911, should I attempt to call my lawyer (family member) immediately so he will be on the phone when LEOs arrive?"


    o Will I always get arrested/detained, or will they do interviews on-scene and file the report?
    -->> You can pretty much be certain you are going to be detained (can't imagine that not taking place) and based upon the state and area in which the incident occurs and the attitudes of the police, you may also be arrested. Police are very good at weighing and determining who the BG's are and if you have just been involved in a defensive shooting, they are going to know that you are the victim almost immediately.

    o If the BG is only injured, should I keep my firearm on him until LEOs arrive?
    -->> Yes, and don't do as you see in movies or on TV. Don't stand up right next to the person you have just wounded. Keep a reasonable distance. When you hear/see (better when you hear) the police coming up, put your gun in your holster and keep your hands visible. You do not want them to arrive at the scene and see you with a gun in your hand.

    o Should I check BG for vitals, or not touch him at all?
    -->> No, do not check the BG for anything. DO NOT touch him or attempt to give aid. Keep your distance and either reholster and keep you hand on your gun or keep your gun out and on the BG until you hear/see the police coming.

    o After I call 911, should I attempt to call my lawyer (family member) immediately so he will be on the phone when LEOs arrive?
    -->> I would try to contact your attorney as soon as you possibly can or a family member who can do this for you. One instructor at a seminar on Virginia Carry and the Use of Deadly Force told the class that instead of calling 911 and asking for the police because there has been a shooting, ask for an ambulance instead. When they hear the word "shooting", you can bet they're going to dispatch police to the scene.


    As for what to say when police arrive, give them the surface information and then inform them that you would prefer to continue after you have contacted your attorney. Just tell them that you are very upset now and that you really need to see your attorney first and then you and he can tell the police what happened but that right now you are just too shaken up to do much of anything.


    INAL and for my friends here on this site, please weigh in on what I have written above with your comments and opinions. This is very important stuff and can make the difference between a no bill and a charge of murder.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  9. #9
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    1) Never rely on legal advice from someone who is not your attorney, especially cops, deputy sheriffs, and clerks of court.

    2) Remember five little letters, write them on the fingers of one hand, if necessary: K Y B M S. Keep Your Big Mouth Shut. Ask to speak to your attorney and then KYBMS.

    3) Call their bluff - if they say they have to arrest you and interrogate you at the police station, go with them and put up with the nonsense. Better to spend a couple nights in jail than twenty years in the penitentiary.

    4) "I want my lawyer!" - and KYBMS.

    5) Did I mention that you ought to keep your big mouth shut? Most of the people I've represented who got convicted for whatever shot themselves in the foot, figuratively speaking, by talking to cops, who will then rewrite, rearrange, and recharacterize what you say in order to get probable cause where none existed, and to get a conviction on the basis of a "confession" that wasn't. Think of it as clever marketing. If you give them ammunition, they can, and will use it against you in a court of law. So, and while I'm at it let me mention, you ought to Keep Your Big Mouth Shut.

    Now, you want to know how I really feel?
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member tletourneau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    "o If the BG is only injured, should I keep my firearm on him until LEOs arrive?
    -->> Yes, and don't do as you see in movies or on TV. Don't stand up right next to the person you have just wounded. Keep a reasonable distance. When you hear/see (better when you hear) the police coming up, put your gun in your holster and keep your hands visible. You do not want them to arrive at the scene and see you with a gun in your hand.

    o Should I check BG for vitals, or not touch him at all?
    -->> No, do not check the BG for anything. DO NOT touch him or attempt to give aid. Keep your distance and either reholster and keep you hand on your gun or keep your gun out and on the BG until you hear/see the police coming.
    This, as with many things, depends on the laws in your state. In MN you are required by law to render aid to the person that you shot.


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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tletourneau View Post
    This, as with many things, depends on the laws in your state. In MN you are required by law to render aid to the person that you shot.


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    Does Minnesota then offer lifetime money and medical support, at taxpayer expense unfortunately, for the victim and/or his family in the event that the BG manages to garnish enough strength and ability to seriously injure or kill the victim while said victim is rendering aid? What happens then? And how on earth can a state require you to render aid at your peril? That's worse than silly.... it's criminal.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    I appreciate your posing these questions to law enforcement officers.

    It will be interesting to read their responses.
    I appreciate your appreciation for the post the original poster posted on a forum made for posting posts.

    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Regular Member tletourneau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Does Minnesota then offer lifetime money and medical support, at taxpayer expense unfortunately, for the victim and/or his family in the event that the BG manages to garnish enough strength and ability to seriously injure or kill the victim while said victim is rendering aid? What happens then? And how on earth can a state require you to render aid at your peril? That's worse than silly.... it's criminal.
    In case anyone is interested it's MN statute 609.662. There is an out for that, Subd. 4 has an affirmative defense clause that says if by preponderance of the evidence the defendant reasonably believes that rendering aid may cause significant risk or bodily harm than you don't have to check.
    Notice that that's a DEFENSE which means you can attempt to use it in court once you've been charged for not rendering aid.

    *** Sorry for the thread hijack ***

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    I appreciate your appreciation for the post the original poster posted on a forum made for posting posts.


    Nevermind the fact that the---does knuclehead have one or two "k"s? Oh, forget it. I'll just start over.

    Nevermind the fact that MilProGuy actually wants input and advice from cops? Of all the possible wrong sources of information, he wants to hear from cops. And, you just know its not because he wants to catch cops making anti-rights, trust-the-government comments. Not with his solid track record of promoting statism.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tletourneau View Post
    In case anyone is interested it's MN statute 609.662. There is an out for that, Subd. 4 has an affirmative defense clause that says if by preponderance of the evidence the defendant reasonably believes that rendering aid may cause significant risk or bodily harm than you don't have to check.
    Notice that that's a DEFENSE which means you can attempt to use it in court once you've been charged for not rendering aid.

    *** Sorry for the thread hijack ***

    Sent from my EVO 4G using Tapatalk.
    "*** Sorry for the thread hijack ***"

    No, no. What you posted was most interesting... to me, anyway. And it is very much in line with the topic of this thread. You did fine to tell us this as far as I'm concerned.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tletourneau View Post
    This, as with many things, depends on the laws in your state. In MN you are required by law to render aid to the person that you shot.


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    If I recall correctly that statute is found under hunting laws, I assume it's meant for an accidental shooting, not a self defense scenario.

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    One other thing that I have not seen mentioned is to HAVE YOUR RECORDER GOING! That way, any statements you make cannot be mangled later for use against you!

    Also, one way to support your SD assertion is to have 911 on the phone if you can ... it will pick up the altercation and CANNOT be argued with by DAs. Just dial 911 and drop the phone on the ground if you have to ... they will have to record the call until the police arrive on scene. If you cannot get 911 called, remember that most PDs now have 'always on' recording of incident scenes, so that recording could also be requested via FOIA.

    It can also give your attorney ammuntion (yep, pun intended) to head off formal charges. That was one prong my attorney used to move the DA off of charging me with felonies (5 or 6 IIRC).
    cheers - okboomer
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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okboomer View Post
    It can also give your attorney ammuntion (yep, pun intended) to head off formal charges. That was one prong my attorney used to move the DA off of charging me with felonies (5 or 6 IIRC).
    Were you involved in a SD shooting?

  19. #19
    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    Were you involved in a SD shooting?
    Almost but didn't happen ... this time the cops were called and I wore the silver bracelets for a while that night.

    Then the DA got froggy and tried to make me out to be the BG.
    Last edited by okboomer; 12-05-2011 at 10:58 PM.
    cheers - okboomer
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    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

  20. #20
    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    I appreciate your appreciation for the post the original poster posted on a forum made for posting posts.

    Wasn't talking to ya'....but looks like your grubby little cartoon character is talking to me.

    When are you going to start ignoring me?
    Proud Veteran ~ U.S. Army / Army Reserve

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  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    Wasn't talking to ya'....but looks like your grubby little cartoon character is talking to me.

    When are you going to start ignoring me?
    GRUBBY!?!?!? DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG THIS TOOK ME TO MAKE IN THAT KNOCK OFF PHOTOSHOP PROGRAM!?!?!?! (called gimp)

    I can't ignore you, every time a thread starts up the next response to it is from MilProGuy thanking that person for owning a computer, breathing, being a live. lol

    Thanks for posting a thread on OCDO
    I appreciate you making an account and posting a thread on OCDO
    Thanks for clicking the submit button
    Thank you for utilizing an internet forum amongst the other things you do with your computer
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  22. #22
    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post


    Nevermind the fact that the---does knuclehead have one or two "k"s? Oh, forget it. I'll just start over.

    Nevermind the fact that MilProGuy actually wants input and advice from cops? Of all the possible wrong sources of information, he wants to hear from cops. And, you just know its not because he wants to catch cops making anti-rights, trust-the-government comments. Not with his solid track record of promoting statism.
    It is spelled "knucklehead".

    I wasn't asking for input from LEOs...the OP was.

    Check the title of the thread, knucklehead!
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  23. #23
    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    GRUBBY!?!?!? DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG THIS TOOK ME TO MAKE IN THAT KNOCK OFF PHOTOSHOP PROGRAM!?!?!?! (called gimp)

    I can't ignore you, every time a thread starts up the next response to it is from MilProGuy thanking that person for owning a computer, breathing, being a live. lol
    Sorry, I didn't mean to hurt "gimps" feelings.

    I'm a "gimp" too, but a very THANKFUL one, as you have so aptly noted.


    In closing, I'd like to thank you for being so kind as to respond to my post.


    You'll never know how much I appreciate your doing so.
    Last edited by MilProGuy; 12-05-2011 at 11:42 PM. Reason: corrected spelling
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  24. #24
    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Oh, lord, you two are just too funny!

    How much have you guys had to drink tonight?
    cheers - okboomer
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way

    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

  25. #25
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Massad Ayoob is one of the featured writers for one of my favorite magazines "backwoods home". i just read a blog that he had done on what to do after the shot. sorry i could not find it. but he does have a couple of books and several articles on the subject if you would like goto http://www.backwoodshome.com/ and check out some of his articles. also i would recommend John sylveria too
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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