Question for a LEO...

SgtScott31 said:

It is simply not that black and white. There are too many variables to give you an exact answer but I'll play.

What exactly did he/she do wrong? I rarely have to draw my weapon on anyone.

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I guess then I must needs to modify my previous question for clarity: Would you draw you gun on a non-cop if they were beating someone? Making threats towards your life? If not, what crimes would cause you to draw your gun or engange the criminal physically?

SgtScott31 said:

Why so quick to "draw my gun?"

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Because from what a number of people have seen around the country is that officers are very quick to pull their guns, their pepper spray, ect. during encounters. In my mind, and I do not feel that I am alone in this, if an officer would draw his/her gun/pepper spray/taser/ect. on a civilian for whatever crime that is being committed or whatever crime the officer thinks the person has committed, then that same officer, if he were a good one, would do the same towards anyone that was engaging in similar behavior no matter if it was a LEO or not.

SgtScott31 said:

There are procedures in place in dealing with police officers or other agents of the state who violate policy and/or any city/state/county law(s).

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Are those procedures different for LEO's than they are for non-LEO's? If so, why?

SgtScott31 said:

If it is a clear violation of law or policy, then it would be reported and an IA would ensue.

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Why are they not arrested on the spot? Last I checked, if you see someone speeding or commiting a crime, they are not just reported to some third party, which then investigates if a crime actually took place, and if a crime was, report said crime and who committed it to the police chief, who then is the sole decision maker as to what punishments are afforded to the criminal. This clearly shows that while LEO's are civil servants, they are clearly treated as though they are better than non-LEO's.

SgtScott31 said:

The detective would be responsible for the IA and decide whether there is enough evidence to sustain it. Then it is left up to the Chief to decide on disciplinary action. Obviously if it's something serious enough, then termination is likely and the case would be turned over to the District Attorney's office to decide whether to pursue criminal charges. LE agencies arresting and attempting to prosecute their own lead to many problems for the attorneys looking to prosecute (or defend) the officer in question. That's why another (independent/impartial) agency or the DAs office are left with deciding any legal action. Besides that, it can also be prejudicial for the officer being accused if he/she is actually getting railroaded.

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I suppose you will have to do better in explaining to me why officers who commit crimes are not arrested on the spot like a normal citizen would be. Last I checked, LEO's are no more and no better than normal citizens and in fact, work for the citizens. Now, not saying that LEO's are not serving a higher moral cause and are doing right for the world, but they are civil servants when you get to bottom of it, nothing more than citizens just like everyone else.

SgtScott31 said:

So if soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan see something they think is wrong on the battlefield, should they confront, accuse, and attempt to take into custody the "wrongful" soldier? There is a reason for a hirearchy/chain of command involving situations like the one you're implying.

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Why? There is no "chain of command" if an officer thinks that I am openly carrying illegally, even though it is legal. Simply trying to explain the legal code to said officer can and most likely will get me charged with some misdemeanor or infraction, or at worst, shot. In orther words, If a soldier sees a fellow soldier doing something wrong and does not do anything to stop it, then that soldier is in the wrong as well. If you, as a LEO, see a fellow LEO breaking the law but do nothing to actively stop it, then how are you any better than the LEO that commited the crime? Would you not be charged as an accomplice? I know that would be what would happen to a non-LEO.

SgtScott31 said:

Officers are not going to arrest another officer on the scene of anything. That would likely escalate the situation and things could go south for one or both of them. The right and proper channel is to take it to through the chain of command. To suggest this is done just to "hide" the actions of bad officers is ridiculous. Obviously it is possible among some corrupt agencies, but for the most part this heirarchy works like it's supposed to.

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But would that not mean that the officer's watching the crime unfold be accomplices? Do not LEO's have a sworn duty to stop crime, even if a fellow LEO is the one commiting it? Because it soulds like if you were party to a LEO committing a crime, you would do nothing while the crime was being committed and just wait to file a report about it once you got back to the station. While that may be how police do things, that is not living up to the sworn duty of a police officer and in my mind, would constitute said LEO as a bad cop, no better than the LEO who was the one committing the crime itself.

SgtScott31 said:

My post did not say that bad officers are "extremely few and far between." If you read it (correctly), I said compared to the amount of bad LEOs that are out there versus the total amount of LEOs in this country, it IS tiny.

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Percentage wise, by your estimation, bad cops make up like .5% or 5% (not 100% sure which you stated) which makes bad cops far and few between.

SgtScott31 said:

I'm not trying to make light of corrupt cops. I hate them worse than you do,

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And yet, you make it sound like you would not stop a LEO who started bashing in a citizen's face for no reason, but just watch impassively and file a report once you get back to the station. While that may be how you are taught to handle interdepartmental affairs like that, how can you look yourself in a mirror and still call yourself a cop when you did nothing to stop a crime enfolding right before your eyes? Or would you go against regulations and either draw your gun or physically restrain your fellow officer if the above were to happen? And if so, would you then place the LEO in handcuffs? If not, would you place a citizen in handcuffs if it was a citizen who was bashing in another citizen's face?

SgtScott31 said:

but I find it irritating when people say/suggest that the bulk of LE in this country are out to "violate rights." It's simply not true. There are over 900k law enforcement officers in this country. Although there is no listed data of officers actually arrested (that I have found), let's say 10,000 for number's sake. 10k into 900k = .01%. Though I'm sure if we compared good LEO stories versus bad ones in the media, it would be a 50:1 ratio. So if one is to base his/her assumption of "bad" cops based on tv/internet alone, they will always assume every LEO they come across is bad/corrupt.

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No, see, here's the thing. If a good cop does not stop a bad cop from committing a crime, that good cop is now a bad cop. Even if that is by the book, it is not something a good cop does. Same with non-LEO's. If I watch my buddy kill someone or beat someone up and I do nothing to stop it, then I can be charged as an accomplice and become a bad guy just like my friend is.

SgtScott31 said:

If you want to say I'm a dishonest/bad cop because I don't arrest another officer as soon as I witness improper behavior, then so be it. It's not the proper way to handle anything. The only time I'm going to intervene immediately is if it's causing a safety issue to the person involved and/or others.

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Do you arrest non-LEO's as soon as you witness improper behavior? Why are LEO's available to more protections under the law regarding criminal activities than non-LEO's are? Shouldn't civil servants like LEO's be held to a higher standard than non-LEO's?

SgtScott31 said:

Have you ever been part of an organziation where a chain of command is used? Have you ever read stories of officers getting unfairly treated, terminated or accused of something they did not do? Whether you like it or not, LEOs have the same rights guaranteed by the Constitution as citizens do.

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From what you have said above, LEO citizens have MORE rights than non-LEO citizens do, but it is not due to the Constitution. More like it is due to police regulations, which are not protected under the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights.

Regarding the bantering and comments on statistically referencing good vice bad LEs, remember who is keeping the numerical count…the fox who is watching the hen house! ("What is the UCR Program? The UCR Program is a voluntary city, university and college, county, state, tribal, and federal law enforcement program that provides a nationwide view of crime based on the submission of statistics by law enforcement agencies throughout the country. )(http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/frequently-asked-questions/ucr_faqs)

"Figures often beguile me," Mark Twain wrote, "particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.'"(Mark Twain's "Chapters from My Autobiography", published in the North American Review in 1906.)

Congratulations Sgt on your appointment to teach at your local LE academy as I am sure it is what the powers to be wanted…an idealist individual who follows the ‘blue’ party line w/o any type of criticism…George Bernard Shaw wrote in Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists" He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.

I agree w/the previous comment regarding the high standard those who serve in the military: if every law enforcement agent, local, county, state, federal across this diverse nation were held accountable for their wrong doing to citizen(s) against something like the UCMJ is to those serving in our military services, then I might, just might, feel more comfortable believing your statistics on good verse bad law enforcement because I would know the bad blue rotten apples are truly where they belong…off the force/agency, etc., and possibly serving time.
Wabbit
Ps quite an interesting discussion per se…

PPS: Even those in the military w/its chain of command know to immediate stop wrong doing then notify those up the chain of command not the other way around after the fact!!

SgtScott31 said:

So if soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan see something they think is wrong on the battlefield, should they confront, accuse, and attempt to take into custody the "wrongful" soldier? There is a reason for a hirearchy/chain of command involving situations like the one you're implying.

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This is why one should know what they are talking about before spitting out their personal opinion as fact.

The answer to the question you pose is a resounding, "YES!".

Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Arimen police each other. It is part of basic training that is ingrained into your daily life.

If you see a fellow servicemember doing the wrong thing, YES, it is incumbent upon you to square that soldier away.

ncwabbit said:

PPS: Even those in the military w/its chain of command know to immediate stop wrong doing then notify those up the chain of command not the other way around after the fact!!

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Bingo!

Does a LEO have the latitude to not investigate/arrest upon witnessing a misdemeanor?

The excessive use of force is subjective and LEOs have a great deal of latitude when applying physical force, where warranted. LEOs have a statute that 'defines' the use of physical force in Missouri. We citizens have our own statute. They are similar, but different in key areas. RsMO 563.

Tough call to be sure, but not affecting a arrest when a misdemeanor is witnessed all depends on whether or not the LEO reasonably believed that what he was doing/saw occur was within the law. Citizens do not have this legal wiggle room.

The real issue, why all the effort to keep Harless and those like him on the force and/or out of jail? Verbal threats of death are not the same as actually killing. But if we citizens were to communicate a deadly threat, a mere policy violation is what we hope to be accused of.

SgtScott31 said:

You seriously think I'm going to give 100% weight to one attorney (on an internet forum whom I don't know) serving in one jurisdiction? You think his experiences in one city/county are going to be identical to ADAs and defense attorneys around the country? I know plenty of attorneys, both in prosecution and defense. You do realize that defense attorneys represent those that will always say they're innocent and give completely different stories than what actually occured? Ever hear the expression that 20% of the criminals commit 80% of the crime? There's some truth to it, but I guess we're to give their testimony (the criminal) more weight than the officers who continually have to arrest them while they're breaking into YOUR house or YOUR car or hurting somone in YOUR family.

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You just accurately described how others here view your pontifications.

Why? There is no "chain of command" if an officer thinks that I am openly carrying illegally, even though it is legal. Simply trying to explain the legal code to said officer can and most likely will get me charged with some misdemeanor or infraction, or at worst, shot. In orther words, If a soldier sees a fellow soldier doing something wrong and does not do anything to stop it, then that soldier is in the wrong as well. If you, as a LEO, see a fellow LEO breaking the law but do nothing to actively stop it, then how are you any better than the LEO that commited the crime? Would you not be charged as an accomplice? I know that would be what would happen to a non-LEO.

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Legal permit holders in my state can still be approached and I can ask to see their permit. The laws are not exclusive among all states, but that's not the point here.

I can see this could go around in circles for hours.

And yet, you make it sound like you would not stop a LEO who started bashing in a citizen's face for no reason, but just watch impassively and file a report once you get back to the station. While that may be how you are taught to handle interdepartmental affairs like that, how can you look yourself in a mirror and still call yourself a cop when you did nothing to stop a crime enfolding right before your eyes?

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Are you just ignoring some parts of my response and not others? Where anywhere in my post even remotely implies I wouldn't stop another officer from "bashing" in a citizen's face? It wouldn't happen on my watch. I said it wouldn't already. It's an insult. Pay attention to my post.

Let's expand this to an employee of a factory, insurance agency, law firm, Macy's, or any place for that matter. If you (as that employee) see something that you think is illegal or in breach of company policy, do you snatch them up and drag them in front of your supervisor, manager, CEO and demand they be fired and/or criminally charged? When you see every person speeding, littering, or not picking up cat crap, do you attempt to detain them for a police officer or take them before a magistrate? I can apply the exact same questions to you no matter where you work and the answers will be the same as mine. No one does what you suggest officers should do when it comes to policy violations or menial offenses. I'm not encouraging any of it by any means, but ask some realistic questions. Like I mentioned, if it's a safety issue or involving physical harm of course I will intervene. Aside from that it's up to the command staff, the DAs office, and my state agency to investigate and enforce disciplinary action/criminal charges on LEOs. Once I file my report the investigation ensues. It's out of my hands at that point.

But would that not mean that the officer's watching the crime unfold be accomplices? Do not LEO's have a sworn duty to stop crime, even if a fellow LEO is the one commiting it? Because it soulds like if you were party to a LEO committing a crime, you would do nothing while the crime was being committed and just wait to file a report about it once you got back to the station. While that may be how police do things, that is not living up to the sworn duty of a police officer and in my mind, would constitute said LEO as a bad cop, no better than the LEO who was the one committing the crime itself.

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What if I saw something I believed to be a crime, but actually wasn't? What if I attempted to detain the LEO on a minor violation and weapons are drawn? There are simply too many variables to give you a simple black/white answer. Any accusations of misconduct or committing crimes, on or off-duty are taken very seriously by my agency. It's simply not "file a report and go away." Most here think LEOs are corrupt as it is, so regardless of what I say you and others here already have your minds made up.

wrightme said:

You just accurately described how others here view your pontifications.

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And...

ncwabbit said:

Regarding the bantering and comments on statistically referencing good vice bad LEs, remember who is keeping the numerical count…the fox who is watching the hen house! ("What is the UCR Program? The UCR Program is a voluntary city, university and college, county, state, tribal, and federal law enforcement program that provides a nationwide view of crime based on the submission of statistics by law enforcement agencies throughout the country. )(http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/frequently-asked-questions/ucr_faqs)

"Figures often beguile me," Mark Twain wrote, "particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.'"(Mark Twain's "Chapters from My Autobiography", published in the North American Review in 1906.)

Congratulations Sgt on your appointment to teach at your local LE academy as I am sure it is what the powers to be wanted…an idealist individual who follows the ‘blue’ party line w/o any type of criticism…George Bernard Shaw wrote in Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists" He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.

I agree w/the previous comment regarding the high standard those who serve in the military: if every law enforcement agent, local, county, state, federal across this diverse nation were held accountable for their wrong doing to citizen(s) against something like the UCMJ is to those serving in our military services, then I might, just might, feel more comfortable believing your statistics on good verse bad law enforcement because I would know the bad blue rotten apples are truly where they belong…off the force/agency, etc., and possibly serving time.
Wabbit
Ps quite an interesting discussion per se…

PPS: Even those in the military w/its chain of command know to immediate stop wrong doing then notify those up the chain of command not the other way around after the fact!!

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So is there some conspiracy theory behind the amount of LEOs that the UCR says there is? My numbers as far as LEOs arrested are a guess. Nothing more, nothing less. You can still quadruple it and it's barely a fraction of those that help people every day. Unfortunately the majority in this forum could care less.

SgtScott31 said:

<snip>

Let's expand this to an employee of a factory, insurance agency, law firm, Macy's, or any place for that matter. If you (as that employee) see something that you think is illegal or in breach of company policy, do you snatch them up and drag them in front of your supervisor, manager, CEO and demand they be fired and/or criminally charged? When you see every person speeding, littering, or not picking up cat crap, do you attempt to detain them for a police officer or take them before a magistrate? I can apply the exact same questions to you no matter where you work and the answers will be the same as mine. No one does what you suggest officers should do when it comes to policy violations or menial offenses. I'm not encouraging any of it by any means, but ask some realistic questions. Like I mentioned, if it's a safety issue or involving physical harm of course I will intervene. Aside from that it's up to the command staff, the DAs office, and my state agency to investigate and enforce disciplinary action/criminal charges on LEOs. Once I file my report the investigation ensues. It's out of my hands at that point.

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I have not found in the Missouri statute(s) a citizen's (me in this case) authorization to detain or arrest for what I reasonably believe are crimes that do not involve serious bodily harm or imminent death. RSMo 544

If I read Missouri statutes correctly, I am not permitted to detain or 'arrest' for infractions. LEOs can detain and arrest. RSMo 544.216

I accept and appreciate, I really do appreciate, that LEOs have some discretion as to when they enforce the law, especially with regards to traffic infractions. I suspect LEOs exercise their discretion for 'harmless misdemeanors' also, and likely at their professional peril. I do not know what the statutes are in Alabama, but I think I have addressed this for Missouri, maybe citizens in Alabama have different statutory authority than the citizens of Missouri.

I certainly hope you do intervene, but there may have been cases where witnessing LEOs did not intervene and no sanctions beyond policy violation discipline resulted for those LEOs that did not intervene. A serious misdemeanor offense committed by a LEO in the course of his duties, witnessed by a on or off-duty LEO, even you perhaps, may not be subject to immediate arrest. Where it likely would result in immediate arrest for a citizen.

What if I saw something I believed to be a crime, but actually wasn't?

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Given the instances where a OCer is detained or arrested for a lawfully activity, I find this comment ironic. In fact, I find this comment to be the crux of the side issue that we are disusing. What you would/will do with regards to a citizen, and that which you would/will do with regards to a fellow LEO

What if I attempted to detain the LEO on a minor violation and weapons are drawn? There are simply too many variables to give you a simple black/white answer. Any accusations of misconduct or committing crimes, on or off-duty are taken very seriously by my agency. It's simply not "file a report and go away."

<snip>

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Why would you not approach a LEO, in this situation, as you would a citizen that you believe is armed? The LEO that you reasonably believed to have violated the law is now resisting arrest, with a firearm, what would you do in this situation if it were a citizen? I do not believe that there are too many variables. The law is fairly black/white. LEOs routinely act on their training, their experiences, and their reasonable belief when contacting citizens. LEOs are fairly confident in their assessment of whether or not the citizen has committed a crime or infraction. Yet, somehow, a LEO may not able to perform similar assessments where other LEOs, in similar situations, are concerned.

I discount off-duty for the simple fact that, while off-duty, a LEO does not have many of the protections that he does on duty. Just another citizen who committed a crime or infraction. LEOs that commit crimes/infractions off-duty are routinely treated the same as citizens who commit similar offenses, as they should be. But, on-duty, a great deal of latitude is provided to a LEO both professionally and via statute. Make no mistake, I am not anti-LEO or anti-LE. If I were, I would frequent Interwebs sites that espoused those wrongheaded and baseless sentiments, and not frequent OCDO.

I have gone far afield from answering the OP's question. But I think that the disparate treatment that some in LE apply to citizens vs. LEOs in similar situations is relevant to the OP's question. Call it professional courtesy while off-duty, or statutory and department policy protections while on-duty. The disparities exist, I do not agree with the disparities for the most part.

So, call a lawyer before the cops get there, keep your pie-hole shut except for the basic ID stuff, and let your lawyer speak for you. And hope that 'good cops' respond to your self-defense incident.

SgtScott31 said:

SNIP

Most here think LEOs are corrupt as it is, so regardless of what I say you and others here already have your minds made up.

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And most LEOs seem to think that it is ok to infringe upon rights for "safety" and/or "security" reasons. They also seem to ignore all of the proof showing the misconduct of their fellow officers, they make excuses for the actions of their fellow officers, and they refuse to properly discipline/remove those bad cops. And yet they don't understand when people don't like cops.

Maybe you should do a better job policing your own and following the Constitition rather than making excuses for your own while working to subvert the Constitition.

No Sgt, my point on statistical usage is the FBI, w/o independent oversight, is using stats from the very organizations who would benefit the most from skewing the information – the law enforcement community!! federal funding, firearm and other neat equipment, etc., is based on these stats.

Btw Sgt did you notice the specific cite of where my information comes from…and Sgt quote: My numbers as far as LEOs arrested are a guess unquote comes from where? and based on what?

SGT quote: It is simply not that black and white. There are too many variables to give you an exact answer…! unquote

yet you espouse subjective generalizations that are to be taken as fact? Im confused with tactic

Sgt, your reference to the factory and would you hold them is why the majority of states have some sort of ‘citizens arrest’ type statutes. Unfortunately, NC does not! Therefore, yes if I were to see wrong doing… yes, I would hold the individual if safely able! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest)

Sgt quote: Officers are not going to arrest another officer on the scene of anything. That would likely escalate the situation and things could go south for one or both of them. The only time I'm going to intervene immediately is if it's causing a safety issue to the person involved and/or others. Unquote.
Is the person involved the other officer? Or John-Q-Public being abused by the officer?

I would be happy to see the video/recording where another LEO say to another LEO…HEY quit doing that you are violating the citizen’s rights leave them alone!! I am sure that would cause things to go south quickly huh!! Oh wait, the LEO might get ostracized or ridiculed by other LEOs in the future.

Sgt quote: There are procedures in place in dealing with police officers or other agents of the state who violate policy and/or any city/state/county law(s). If it is a clear violation of law or policy, then it would be reported and an IA would ensue. The detective would be responsible for the IA and decide whether there is enough evidence to sustain it. Then it is left up to the Chief to decide on disciplinary action. Unquote.

Interesting to note the DA is not involved in your discussion about the decision of an alleged wrong doing by an officer. There is no independent ombudsman involved from the beginning to decide if the officer committed a wrong doing as alleged by a citizen of supported by video/audio evidence…oh wait the law enforcement community frowns on citizen’s use video/audio equipment.

Sgt quote: Whether you like it or not, LEOs have the same rights guaranteed by the Constitution as citizens do. Unquote.

Unfortunately Sgt, citizens are, from the git-go, are at a disadvantage on the guaranteed rights if those who, based on their own biases, fall to discern the established statutes as intended. By your own statement (see above) LEOs wrong doing(s) are adjudicated by their fellow officers and finally the chief.

Sgt quote: Obviously if it's something serious enough, (wabbit comment: who makes that determination…oh wait the chief) then termination is likely and the case would be turned over to the District Attorney's office to decide whether to pursue criminal charges. Unquote.

So if I am accused of a serious enough crime, I can retire and then let the DA decide whether to pursue criminal charges? Am I allow to use PTSD defence like LEOs so I can collect my pension, especially since if it is medically induced it now becomes non-taxable by the state and federal governments?

Sgt quote: LE agencies arresting and attempting to prosecute their own lead to many problems for the attorneys looking to prosecute (or defend) the officer in question. That's why another (independent/impartial) agency or the DAs office are left with deciding any legal action. Besides that, it can also be prejudicial for the officer being accused if he/she is actually getting railroaded. unquote.

What…a citizen insisting they are not guilty is told ‘ya everyone says that’ with chuckle added for emphasis, yet an accused LEO is prejudicially judged and is getting railroaded? Oh sorry I digress…problems to prosecute a LEO…you just stated they have the same rights as citizens…unless there is special consideration given to LEOs IMHO I have difficulty understanding difficulties.

Sgt, Could you provide specifics…oh wait, you only provide generalizations based on your personal biases!

Would everyone hold up their hand (one only please) that have a community independent ombudsman or other ‘independent/impartial agency’ in place? Going out on a limb here, but I would 'generalize' only the largest agencies have some type that is probably overwhelmed and only reviews the most egregious officer allegations.

wabbit

ps: your reference about you teaching at the academy...do you still work a sector? as supervisor who is only called out to mediate situations or actually patrol meeting citizens?

pss: second year law and you can't cite specifics...hummm

SgtScott31 said:

What if I saw something I believed to be a crime, but actually wasn't? What if I attempted to detain the LEO on a minor violation and weapons are drawn? There are simply too many variables to give you a simple black/white answer. Any accusations of misconduct or committing crimes, on or off-duty are taken very seriously by my agency. It's simply not "file a report and go away." Most here think LEOs are corrupt as it is, so regardless of what I say you and others here already have your minds made up.

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And how is this any different than dealing with a citizen? Cops draw their guns on Open Carriers all the time, which is a minor violation ONLY if said OC has refused to leave private property after being asked to. The thing that I don't get is that you seem to be saying that it is a good cop who does nothing to stop a fellow officer who may or may not be violating the law in some way, and instead just reporting it to the police department. That is extremely similar to the recent case of the football coach who was accused of raping boys, since a fellow coach saw and/or heard something that made him think that a violation was going on but instead of telling the police or trying to stop it himself, he just walked away and told his superiors WHO THEN SWEPT IT UNDER THE RUG! Just like the police do, as numberous accounts by police officers themselves have revealed.