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Thread: Pigeon shooter draws XDm, caught on camera

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Pigeon shooter draws XDm, caught on camera



    From what I understand, from the very short clip provided, the older man laid hands on the camera man first. At this point the camera man's friend said "come on mother ****** let's go." THEN the older gentleman pulls a gun and says "you hit me," and orders the man to the ground.

    I am not a lawyer, but I am pretty sure you cannot get in someone's face aggressively, lay hands on them, and then pull a gun when they retaliate.


    And what was this guy doing carrying in a holstered gun in a pocket? (I'm assuming it was in a pocket because he drew his gun AND holster, then removed the gun from the holster, then started pointing it around.)

    Discuss....



    EDIT: And on a side note...shooting live birds and leaving them half dead in a pile? Really? I'm no PETA supporter, but this just seems wrong....
    Last edited by Schlitz; 12-05-2011 at 10:40 AM. Reason: updated to full video
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  2. #2
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    If it's legal, I don't get why they are so aggressive towards being filmed.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    If it's legal, I don't get why they are so aggressive towards being filmed.
    I've seen a few videos of these guys, they get pretty nasty toward the protesters. Aside from grabbing cameras and trying to fight, I've seen them almost run over someone who was standing on a street corner protesting.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  4. #4
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Well the implication is these are aggressive and brutal individuals who seek entertainment out of wounding birds. I can't disagree.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    I don't agree with what those guys are doing there, however.. That doesn't make it illegal I suppose.

    Beyond that aspect, I would be fairly upset at people filming me, and taking pictures of me solely for the purpose for using it for slandering. You know the footage is ending up on the internet and/or likely some other activist filmings. In this respect, using your face/likeliness without permission in such aspects is against the law. Can't say that excuses the aggressive behavior.

    How should/would you react if someone came up to you with a video camera filming you for slanderous purposes? Would you take their camera? Would you destroy their camera? Would you attack them as these shooters have done?
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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    If it's true, it ain't slander. I've been following these pigeon shooters for some time. I have no love for "flying rats", but there is no way in this world I would put any animal through what I've seen in videos from these shoots. I would estimate that for every bird killed cleanly, there are at least two that are wounded and made to suffer.

    On the other side of the coin, I am no fan of PETA, either. There is nothing ethical about these "people".

    One other comment: When I was still hunting, I took pride in only requiring one shot to kill an animal. That is what my uncles taught me and that is what was reinforced by a German Jaegermeister. If you can't kill the animal cleanly with one shot, don't take the shot.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    I don't agree with what those guys are doing there, however.. That doesn't make it illegal I suppose.

    Beyond that aspect, I would be fairly upset at people filming me, and taking pictures of me solely for the purpose for using it for slandering. You know the footage is ending up on the internet and/or likely some other activist filmings. In this respect, using your face/likeliness without permission in such aspects is against the law. Can't say that excuses the aggressive behavior.

    How should/would you react if someone came up to you with a video camera filming you for slanderous purposes? Would you take their camera? Would you destroy their camera? Would you attack them as these shooters have done?
    slan·der (from dictionary.com)

    noun
    1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
    2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
    3. Law . defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.

    verb (used with object)
    4.to utter slander against; defame.

    Slander is making statements against someone that are not true. Showing video of an event that actually occurs is not slander as it does not meet all of the criteria above.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    I don't agree with what those guys are doing there, however.. That doesn't make it illegal I suppose.

    Beyond that aspect, I would be fairly upset at people filming me, and taking pictures of me solely for the purpose for using it for slandering. You know the footage is ending up on the internet and/or likely some other activist filmings. In this respect, using your face/likeliness without permission in such aspects is against the law. Can't say that excuses the aggressive behavior.
    This fight has been going on for years. At least one of the activists is an attorney who knows her rights with regards to photography. There are more than a few videos posted to the Youtubes regarding these ongoing altercations. If these "activists" (people with too much time on their hands) have broken the law in any way the pigeon shooters (more people with too much time) would have exploited that transgression to their advantage. The pigeon shooters have already resulted to hit and run as evidenced by one video. The drawn gun is no surprise.

    And before anyone puts words in my mouth I could care less about either side in this non-issue. I'm not taking sides.




    How should/would you react if someone came up to you with a video camera filming you for slanderous purposes? Would you take their camera? Would you destroy their camera? Would you attack them as these shooters have done?
    Call the cops to enforce the retaining order? Because the only way you would know the intent of a photographer was if you had already won a civil suit against them for slandering/libeling you in the past. And a restraining order was part of the settlement? I'm not a legal guy, but I'm pretty sure you can't assault someone for taking pictures regardless of motive. Unless of course you have the misfortune of finding yourself in the sh*tholes of Berks and Bucks Counties.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Where's the sport in killing these animals let out of boxes? If you're going to shoot something set up to fly through the air shoot skeet. I don't hunt but I'm in no way against it. This isn't hunting though. If that guy who pulled out the gun started it and the other guy had no weapon he should lose his carry permit (assuming he had one) and charged with brandishing or whatever else he could be charged with. Gives gun carriers a bad name!
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

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    This was a ridiculous and obvious case of brandishing. How the guy wasn't arrested is beyond me.

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    Wow. My gas on the fire question is:

    Is this in any way connected -- tangentially or otherwise -- to Freemasonry?

    Wow, just wow. That wasn't brandishing. That was Assault II.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    I don't really agree with hunting as a game/sport - hunting an animal that caged first - like this pigeon shoot.
    I disagree with a comment in the beginning of the video that seems to suggest that the people in this video are dangerous to all animals and people in general just because they participate in this "sport." The people on camera do seem to have anger issues but I'll bet there are portions we aren't seeing too. These videos are obviously edited to only show the altercations. They are obviously cutting out any and all video that was shot prior to the altercations. How much video did they shoot? How many times were they kindly asked to leave and they didn't?

    Is anyone wondering though why there's at least a 30-sec shot of a guy taking a leak? Why did THAT act need to be on camera? What's that got to do with anything?

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-gal View Post
    Is anyone wondering though why there's at least a 30-sec shot of a guy taking a leak? Why did THAT act need to be on camera? What's that got to do with anything?
    Boy did you miss that one. He knew he was being filmed and pulled up his shirt and exposed himself - an advanced version of giving the middle finger, lol.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    It is not against the law to film anything you can see from public property.
    It is not against the law to shoot pigeons, even if unskilled at wing shooting.

    I wonder if the shooting club is zoned so that erecting a screening fence 20 feet high is allowable. These videos make it seem as if they're so well connected that getting the needed permit would not be a problem. Take away the ability to film inflaming videos and the protestors are toothless.

    Assault-committing pigeon shooters should be in jail.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim675 View Post
    Assault-committing pigeon shooters should be in jail.
    That they are not makes it fairly safe to assume they are 'connected'
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    I'm not sure about PA law, around here these guys could be charged with: battery, assault, assault with a deadly weapon, felony menacing, harassment, and probably a heap of other things I don't even know about...

    What a bunch of antisocial douchenozzles. Without consideration to the pigeon shooting activity, they need the kibosh put on 'em.

    edit: On further thought, and more topical to the forum, these sort of aggressive...beings...may be good argument for the dissuasive nature of open carry.
    Last edited by CO-Joe; 12-04-2011 at 09:58 PM.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sangre View Post
    This was a ridiculous and obvious case of brandishing. How the guy wasn't arrested is beyond me.
    I quite agree with you...on both points.
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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Boy did you miss that one. He knew he was being filmed and pulled up his shirt and exposed himself - an advanced version of giving the middle finger, lol.
    ROFL! I thought they were just filming the guy taking a whiz.
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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Full video found. It appears both parties are at fault with their behavior.

    1. You don't follow people, especially when they're trying to obviously lose you...that's how you get shot.

    2. you don't follow them and then get out to start a confrontation



    For the pigeon shooter

    1. you don't get out if in a parking lot if someone is following you

    2. you don't assault people

    3. you don't pull a gun after assaulting someone when they go to retaliate.


    Original post is updated.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Very strange. The police obviously thought both parties were at fault. If someone was followin me like that I would be on the phone with the police but I would also be getting ready to take defensive action if necessary. Would not have pulled my gun in this specific situation.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    This reminds me of Whale Wars. The activist believe they are in the right because they think what they are doing is saving the animals. The other side say it is within their rights to pursue happiness.

    Both sides have issues. IMHO, most activist incite as much as they can, regardless if they are wrong, they justify it by through spinning it 'its for the animals'.

    OBTW, I do not participate in the pigeon shooting sport. However, pigeons and squirrels are a nuisance.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    I have nothing against shooting nuisance pigeons.

    I also learned at an early age that if you are going to shoot something, then shoot to kill. If the animal is merely wounded, you did not place your shot good enough and must finish the animal off humanely with a second shot or by other means.

    Allowing a bird that has been shot to lay in a pile of its fellow dead birds still alive and thrashing is not the proper way to treat them or any other animal.

    As far as brandishing? Not sure, because I cannot see what the other people are doing. If the guy was in fear for his life, perhaps. of course this begs the question, why did he stop instead of driving them right to the police station?

    IMHO, everybody here had a part in the escalation and what is seen on the tape.
    Last edited by rscottie; 12-05-2011 at 03:12 PM. Reason: Putting comment back on topic

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    As far as brandishing? Not sure, because I cannot see what the other people are doing. If the guy was in fear for his life, perhaps. of course this begs the question, why did he stop instead of driving them right to the police station?
    Why did he stop is a good one, here's another - why didn't he pull the trigger? If you're in fear for your life you don't pull a gun out, point it at people, then turn to your buddy and start sayin' "DID YOU SEE HIM HIT ME!?" Obviously the two pursuing him were not threatening his life, thus the handgun was unnecessary and criminal.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    Why did he stop is a good one, here's another - why didn't he pull the trigger? If you're in fear for your life you don't pull a gun out, point it at people, then turn to your buddy and start sayin' "DID YOU SEE HIM HIT ME!?" Obviously the two pursuing him were not threatening his life, thus the handgun was unnecessary and criminal.
    I agree. He only pulled a gun to correct the mistake(s) that he had made. Which don't make it legal.

    If you break into my house and I come after you with a 12ga you cannot legally shoot me. I might have made it clear to you that only one of us was going to walk out of here but it is still not justifiable self defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    ...I am not a lawyer, but I am pretty sure you cannot get in someone's face aggressively, lay hands on them, and then pull a gun when they retaliate...
    In Alabama, the law specifically disallows an unjustified aggressor from claiming self-defense, even if he is responding to the response to his aggression.


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