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Thread: I think there are some things wrong with MSP update #86

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I think there are some things wrong with MSP update #86

    From what I can tell the part regarding non-residents possessing a handgun in Michigan need a license to carry whether it be resident or non-resident. To carry the gun concealed or in a vehicle they must have a license from their home state. I believe that the MSP legal update is wrong in regards to out-of-state residents. 28.422 does say they need a license from their home state, the Janet Kukuk act allows non-residents to only need a license from another state.
    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.
    Sec. 2. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.
    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    This is what Janet Kukuk act allows for exemption.
    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; amendatory act as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12. (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.
    (b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.
    (c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this
    state.
    (d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.
    (e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while
    engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by
    another state.

    (g) The regular and ordinary possession and transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized
    agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.
    (h) Purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm. As used in this
    subdivision, "antique firearm" means that term as defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.
    (2) The amendatory act that added subsection (1)(h) shall be known and may be cited as the "Janet Kukuk act".
    I noticed one part of the act become effective as of Feb. 15, 2011 and the MSP legal update come out in October of 2010.
    This is what the legal update says.
    Out-of-state residents
    Non-residents may legally possess a firearm more than 30 inches in length in Michigan. In order for a non-resident to possess a pistol in Michigan, he or she must either be licensed to carry a concealed pistol or be licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol. The ownership of property in Michigan does not qualify a non-resident to possess a pistol in Michigan.
    Non-resident concealed pistol possession
    MCL 750.231a makes it legal for a non-resident of Michigan with a valid CPL issued by his or her state of residence to carry a concealed pistol in Michigan as long as the pistol is carried in conformance with any and all restrictions appearing on the license. Individuals with out of state CPLs are subject to Michigan laws that govern Michigan CPL holders. As many states issue CPLs to out of state residents, officers should verify that the person actually resides in the state that issued the license. If the person does not reside in the state that issued the license, Michigan does not recognize the CPL and the person may not carry a concealed pistol in Michigan.
    Possession of pistols by non-residents
    MCL 28.432 makes it legal for non-residents of Michigan who hold valid CPLs issued by another state to possess a non-concealed pistol in
    Michigan without complying with Michigan’s pistol registration requirements. Additionally, MCL 28.422 exempts residents of other states from Michigan’s pistol registration requirements therefore, allowing them to possess a pistol in Michigan, if all of the following requirements are met:
    1. The person is licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase, transport, or carry a pistol,
    2. The person is in possession of the license while in Michigan,
    3. The person owns the pistol possessed in Michigan,
    4. The person possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as defined in MCL 750.231a, and
    5. The person is in Michigan less than 180 days and does not intend to establish residency here.
    A non-resident must present the license issued by his or her state of residence to a police officer upon demand. Failure to do so is a 90-day misdemeanor. When transporting a firearm in Michigan, non-residents must transport pistols in compliance with MCL 750.231a (discussed above in the Transporting Firearms section), unless they have a concealed pistol license issued by their state of residence.
    I could very well be wrong in my interpretation because well, I'm not a lawyer.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 12-04-2011 at 02:21 PM.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    There is also a problem with lawful purpose but I cant recal the details right now, and I dont have the time to look it up.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    There is also a problem with lawful purpose but I cant recal the details right now, and I dont have the time to look it up.
    Yeah the law does not include "to and from" it simply states for a lawful purpose which includes a list of things. It does not restrict it to those things though. But it seems MSP hints at that by underlining the word "includes".

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of
    the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Trouble Is, Its not an all inclusive list, so, did they screw up, or did they just intend to mislead people?

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    From what I can tell the part regarding non-residents possessing a handgun in Michigan need a license to carry whether it be resident or non-resident. To carry the gun concealed or in a vehicle they must have a license from their home state. I believe that the MSP legal update is wrong in regards to out-of-state residents. 28.422 does say they need a license from their home state, the Janet Kukuk act allows non-residents to only need a license from another state.

    This is what Janet Kukuk act allows for exemption.

    I noticed one part of the act become effective as of Feb. 15, 2011 and the MSP legal update come out in October of 2010.
    This is what the legal update says.


    I could very well be wrong in my interpretation because well, I'm not a lawyer.
    There are two statutes. One specifically talks about concealed carry and you need a permit from your home state to do so. The second is in regard to registration and just possession and any permit will do for that.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  6. #6
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    To me, the following is an error right on the first page:

    Quote Originally Posted by MSP Legal Update #86 Page 1
    In Michigan, it is legal for a person to carry a firearm in public as long as the person is carrying the firearm with lawful intent and the firearm is not concealed. You will not find a law that states it is legal to openly carry a firearm. It is legal because there is no Michigan law that prohibits it; however, Michigan law limits the premises on which a person may carry a firearm.
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    Open Carry of a Pistol is definitely covered by MCL 28.422:

    Quote Originally Posted by MCL 28.422, Selected Sections
    License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.

    Sec. 2.

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.

    ...

    (6) Within 48 hours after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall forward 1 copy of the license to the department of state police. The licensing authority shall retain the other copy of the license as an official record for not less than 6 years. Within 10 days after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall electronically enter the information into the pistol entry database as required by the department of state police if it has the ability to electronically enter that information. If the licensing authority does not have that ability, the licensing authority shall provide that information to the department of state police in a manner otherwise required by the department of state police. Any licensing authority that provided pistol descriptions to the department of state police under former section 9 of this act shall continue to provide pistol descriptions to the department of state police under this subsection. The purchaser has the right to obtain a copy of the information placed in the pistol entry database under this subsection to verify the accuracy of that information. The licensing authority may charge a fee not to exceed $1.00 for the cost of providing the copy. The licensee may carry, use, possess, and transport the pistol for 30 days beginning on the date of purchase or acquisition only while he or she is in possession of his or her copy of the license. However, the person is not required to have the license in his or her possession while carrying, using, possessing, or transporting the pistol after this period.
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422
    Last edited by PDinDetroit; 12-04-2011 at 08:48 PM. Reason: Added link to MSP Legal Update #86

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    When I was working with the sergeant on this I mentioned the issues you are bringing up along with several others. Some she corrected and some she did not.

    Sent from my Inspire 4G via Tapatalk flying mail monkeys
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Maybe I missed it but what exactly is your question/concern?

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Maybe I missed it but what exactly is your question/concern?

    Bronson
    My concern is this being referenced to people who do not know the law as well as we do and they're getting some misinformation. The non-resident thing isn't a huge deal but is still incorrect information. A misinformed cop who reads the to-and-from part could cause problems for someone like me who does not have a CPL.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    As an expatriate U.S. Citizen, I'm very interested in this topic as it directly impacts me.

    The best I can do (while residing abroad) is to obtain an Arizona concealed pistol permit (Utah is also theoretically possible, but tough to satisfy the Utah training requirement without a special trip home for that). Thank god for Arizona . . . they will even mail an application overseas for free ;-)

    It is my understanding that I could not carry concealed (when I'm back in Michigan for a visit), but could openly carry everywhere, including the 'pistol free zones', so long as I had a valid concealed carry permit issued from some other state.

    So anyway, I really do appreciate the discussion over this particular area, including any possible issues with the MSP Update.

    Vermont residents would also find this discussion relevant.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Again, maybe I missed it, but what information specifically in MSP LU 86 is incorrect in regards to non-residents?

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Again, maybe I missed it, but what information specifically in MSP LU 86 is incorrect in regards to non-residents?

    Bronson
    The MSP update is saying for non-residents to possess a pistol in Michigan they need a license from their state of residence. This is not true, as you know all they need is any license whether it be resident or non-resident. I've bolded the parts I have found inconsistent with the Janet Kukuk act.
    Out-of-state residents
    Non-residents may legally possess a firearm more than 30 inches in length in Michigan. In order for a non-resident to possess a pistol in Michigan, he or she must either be licensed to carry a concealed pistol or be licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol. The ownership of property in Michigan does not qualify a non-resident to possess a pistol in Michigan.
    Non-resident concealed pistol possession
    MCL 750.231a makes it legal for a non-resident of Michigan with a valid CPL issued by his or her state of residence to carry a concealed pistol in Michigan as long as the pistol is carried in conformance with any and all restrictions appearing on the license. Individuals with out of state CPLs are subject to Michigan laws that govern Michigan CPL holders. As many states issue CPLs to out of state residents, officers should verify that the person actually resides in the state that issued the license. If the person does not reside in the state that issued the license, Michigan does not recognize the CPL and the person may not carry a concealed pistol in Michigan.
    Possession of pistols by non-residents
    MCL 28.432 makes it legal for non-residents of Michigan who hold valid CPLs issued by another state to possess a non-concealed pistol in
    Michigan without complying with Michigan’s pistol registration requirements. Additionally, MCL 28.422 exempts residents of other states from Michigan’s pistol registration requirements therefore, allowing them to possess a pistol in Michigan, if all of the following requirements are met:
    1.The person is licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase, transport, or carry a pistol,
    2.The person is in possession of the license while in Michigan,
    3. The person owns the pistol possessed in Michigan,
    4. The person possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as defined in MCL 750.231a, and
    5. The person is in Michigan less than 180 days and does not intend to establish residency here.
    A non-resident must present the license issued by his or her state of residence to a police officer upon demand. Failure to do so is a 90-day misdemeanor. When transporting a firearm in Michigan, non-residents must transport pistols in compliance with MCL 750.231a (discussed above in the Transporting Firearms section), unless they have a concealed pistol license issued by their state of residence.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 12-05-2011 at 12:40 PM.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    In order for a non-resident to possess a pistol in Michigan, he or she must either be licensed to carry a concealed pistol or be licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    MSP is simply saying that a non-resident must meet one of the two possible conditions to possess a pistol in Michigan:

    1. He or she must have a HCP (a permit from Tn for example).

    "or be"

    2. Licensed by his or her state to purchase, carry, etc. This is our License To Purchase (LTP) in Michigan.

    NOTE: Tn does NOT require handgun registration (no LTP, FOID, Etc) so this condition doesn't come into play for those who reside in Tn to possess a pistol in Michigan. In other words, the resident of Tn must have his or her HCP to possess a pistol in Michigan. Tn residents can not meet MCL 28.422, Subsection (8.) because Tn does not require handgun registration.

    ETA: ...or a CPL, HCP, MOUSE, Etc from another state.
    Last edited by SpringerXDacp; 12-05-2011 at 01:39 PM.

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    I'm a bit confused. Does a non-resident, who has a valid concealed carry permit from a State (not his own), still need to 'register' the pistol?

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    I'm a bit confused. Does a non-resident, who has a valid concealed carry permit from a State (not his own), still need to 'register' the pistol?
    No
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    MSP is simply saying that a non-resident must meet one of the two possible conditions to possess a pistol in Michigan:

    1. He or she must have a HCP (a permit from Tn for example).

    "or be"

    2. Licensed by his or her state to purchase, carry, etc. This is our License To Purchase (LTP) in Michigan.

    NOTE: Tn does NOT require handgun registration (no LTP, FOID, Etc) so this condition doesn't come into play for those who reside in Tn to possess a pistol in Michigan. In other words, the resident of Tn must have his or her HCP to possess a pistol in Michigan. Tn residents can not meet MCL 28.422, Subsection (8.) because Tn does not require handgun registration.

    ETA: ...or a CPL, HCP, MOUSE, Etc from another state.
    I think you're right. I was looking too much into the resident part.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    The MSP update is saying for non-residents to possess a pistol in Michigan they need a license from their state of residence. This is not true, as you know all they need is any license whether it be resident or non-resident. I've bolded the parts I have found inconsistent with the Janet Kukuk act.
    I'm posting from my phone since my home internet is down so no copy& paste magic from me, but read it again carefully because as I read MSP 86 it is correct...at least in regards to non-resident carry.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 12-06-2011 at 06:30 PM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    As an expatriate U.S. Citizen, I'm very interested in this topic as it directly impacts me.

    The best I can do (while residing abroad) is to obtain an Arizona concealed pistol permit (Utah is also theoretically possible, but tough to satisfy the Utah training requirement without a special trip home for that). Thank god for Arizona . . . they will even mail an application overseas for free ;-)

    It is my understanding that I could not carry concealed (when I'm back in Michigan for a visit), but could openly carry everywhere, including the 'pistol free zones', so long as I had a valid concealed carry permit issued from some other state.

    So anyway, I really do appreciate the discussion over this particular area, including any possible issues with the MSP Update.

    Vermont residents would also find this discussion relevant.
    Michigan has reciprocity with Arizona CPLs.
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

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  19. #19
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamaneggs View Post
    Michigan has reciprocity with Arizona CPLs.
    Only if he is a resident of Arizona could he carry concealed with an Arizona permit.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamaneggs View Post
    Michigan has reciprocity with Arizona CPLs.
    That is right. The best I could do (apparently) is open carry while in possession of an Arizona CPL. No concealed carry allowed. This prohibition applies to all Vermont residents (their state doesn't issue concealed carry permits) and all expatriate U.S. citizens (who by definition cannot have a State residence).

    This will make for some interesting legal challenges in due course (once SCOTUS settles the question of carry outside the home).

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