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Terrorist Congress Declares War on American People

wrightme

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What about the Laws that have been passed, and that have been struck down by SCOTUS - you seem to think those Laws, through all-time, and eternity are going to be unConstitutional. Hmmm, you don't really believe that do you? Consider the make-up of the Court, and how it changes over time, as well as social 'norms'.

Yes, the United States is a Constitutional Republican - I am not disputing that. We are locally Democratic. Is it possible you misunderstood my post?

"Stare Decisis"


So, YES, many persons DO believe exactly that, for very good reason. Reversals are the exception, not the norm. Your desire to view it differently seems to be a bare opinion, or desire to have it be as you prefer, instead of how it actually IS.



"Constitutional Republican?" ????

[snortle] :lol:
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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"Stare Decisis"


So, YES, many persons DO believe exactly that, for very good reason. Reversals are the exception, not the norm. Your desire to view it differently seems to be a bare opinion, or desire to have it be as you prefer, instead of how it actually IS.



"Constitutional Republican?" ????

[snortle] :lol:

Oopsie, not "Constitutional Republican," ummm, Constitutional Republic.

It's funny you mention Stare Decisis. I remember the hearing for Justice Roberts: "
But he acknowledged that upholding past cases ensured "predictability, stability and legitimacy."
Later in the hearing, Roberts told Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, he would judge any challenge to Roe according to the principle of stare decisis, latin for "stand by a decision," meaning courts are bound by previous decisions, or precedent.
Once issues are "settled," the idea is to prevent ongoing confusion and litigation over the meaning and impact of past cases -- except in extraordinary cases.

Roberts cited Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the 1992 Supreme Court decision that affirmed Roe, as the starting point in his deliberations if a case challenging the landmark ruling came before him.
"Well, that determination in Casey becomes one of the precedents of the court, entitled to respect like any other precedent of the court, under principles of stare decisis," Roberts said."That is a precedent entitled to respect under principles of stare decisis like any other precedent of the court."

http://articles.cnn.com/2005-09-13/...-justice-nominee-precedent-roe?_s=PM:POLITICS

Rather subjective don't you think - that a thing is the exception, not the rule? So, Stare Decisis, as you have stated, applies, but there are exceptions to the rule.

I have no desire to view anything any way. Just observations.
 
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wrightme

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So, Stare Decisis, as you have stated, applies, but there are exceptions to the rule.

I have no desire to view anything any way. Just observations.

So, you agree that Stare Decisis is the rule, and there are exceptions. That IS an observation.

Attempting to point out that exceptions invalidate a rule isn't an observation, it is a desire to view it in one way that seems beneficial to your position.


The reality is that past SCOTUS decisions about Constitutionality ARE [in large part] perpetual, and not flexible as you attempt to indicate with "Consider the make-up of the Court, and how it changes over time, as well as social 'norms'." Such changes do not readily affect past decisions.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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So, you agree that Stare Decisis is the rule, and there are exceptions. That IS an observation.

Attempting to point out that exceptions invalidate a rule isn't an observation, it is a desire to view it in one way that seems beneficial to your position.


The reality is that past SCOTUS decisions about Constitutionality ARE [in large part] perpetual, and not flexible as you attempt to indicate with "Consider the make-up of the Court, and how it changes over time, as well as social 'norms'." Such changes do not readily affect past decisions.



Of course not, but it does bring to light that rules are contingent exceptions.

As to viewing a thing my way that seems beneficial to my position is termed Relativism. We are all subject to it - some of flaunt their hold to it more than others.

Another hook, "in large part." You can't seem to get away from it, can you?
 
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wrightme

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Of course not, but it does bring to light that rules are contingent exceptions.

As to viewing a thing my way that seems beneficial to my position is termed Relativism. We are all subject to it - some of flaunt their hold to it more than others.
Correct. And I point it out in this discussion, because you DO seem to apply relativism, and also you DO seem to clearly expect that of others, as evidenced by your premature "I expect you will say...." in the other thread.

Beretta92FSLady said:
Another hook, "in large part." You can't seem to get away from it, can you?
I have no reason to "get away from it." It is accurate. Stare Decisis isn't an absolute, and I recognize that as a fact. Thus, it is inaccurate to claim "in all cases." But, it IS accurate to say "in large part," because that IS accurate.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Correct. And I point it out in this discussion, because you DO seem to apply relativism, and also you DO seem to clearly expect that of others, as evidenced by your premature "I expect you will say...." in the other thread.

I have no reason to "get away from it." It is accurate. Stare Decisis isn't an absolute, and I recognize that as a fact. Thus, it is inaccurate to claim "in all cases." But, it IS accurate to say "in large part," because that IS accurate.


I agree that "in large part" Stare Decisis is applicable to the things that it is deemed applicable to.

Is there any other perspective than Relativism?
 

wrightme

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I agree that "in large part" Stare Decisis is applicable to the things that it is deemed applicable to.
Wiggle words much?

The things 'that it is deemed applicable to,' are SCOTUS decisions.
Remember, the exception/s do not disprove the rule.

Beretta92FSLady said:
Is there any other perspective than Relativism?

Absolutism. Or how about "Objectivism."


No one "needs" to attempt to redefine reality to suit their desired outcome. People CAN choose to simply make observations, without altering them with their desired outcome.

In fact, that is the more fruitful way to approach things, as it provides a more solid basis for either using reality to acheive goals, or for working to change that which stands in the way of those goals. Attempts to make yourself believe that a reality does work FOR your goals when it is actually in opposition to those goals isn't fruitful.


Oh, and another term for "Relativism" content being presented is "Spin." Take out the spin.
 
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since9

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Is there any other perspective than Relativism?

Yes. All others. Relativism says that a rapist is a good person relative to a mass murderer. Do you think that's wise?

Relativism also denies objective reality, yet several millennia of historical documents have undeniably demonstrated a clear locus (term from chaos theory) of operation when it comes to human interaction, regardless of race, belief, geographic location, or environmental conditions. Historical fact itself reveals that mankind has always operated from an objective reality, and that any significant departure from the norm (statistically speaking) results in greater instability and likelihood of decay. The same historical facts hammer home the concept that relativism without an objective anchor point is as prone to decay as no system at all (chaos).

Critics of relativism abound, from Plato to modern professors of philosophy, including Larry Laudan, who, in "In Science and Relativism," writes "The displacement of the idea that facts and evidence matter by the idea that everything boils down to subjective interest and perspectives, is—second only to American political campaigns—the most prominent and pernicious manifestation of relativism of our time."

The perniciousness of an idea or concept is no evidence or support of it's worth. Countless "old wives tales" persist to this day, despite having been thoroughly debunked via countless more means. They persist, and their proponents will swear up and down on a stack of Bibles the tales are the truth.

Yet they, like relativism, remain pure bunk, no matter how many people ignorantly throw their faith behind them.

When it comes to stare decisis, "to stand by judged matters," it's "a doctrine or policy of following rules or principles laid down in previous judicial decisions unless they contravene the ordinary principles of justice."

The problem is: What if what's already been decided was wrong?

A lot of Supreme Court decision is based on the concept that our Constitution is a "living document." By that, I'm not referring to the fact that it contains within itself the means outlying necessary modifications (amendments). I'm referring to the slippery slope of attitude espoused by several sitting Supreme Court Justices where they believe those who framed our Constitution knew much about what they were doing, but not everything, and therefore it's ok to "tweak the interpretation" in a court of law if necessary to make it more relevant (there's that word again) to modern society.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it originates in ignorance, and the false idea that relativism is a sound doctrine when it's not, particularly when it comes to the law. The ignorant part usually involves a lack of understanding of the historical and contemporary concept in which an idea was formed.

Take our Second Amendment, for example. Most relativists on the Supreme Court, like Kagen, believe it's no longer relevant today, or at least largely irrelevant, as we do not have a routine need to hunt and we're not actively engaged in a Revolution, therefore we don't need those nasty little firearms which cause so much damage in our society!

She, like Clinton and the UN gun-banners, are ignorant of the multipurpose nature of a firearm. They are ignorant that the clause "necessary to the security of a free state" refers to a state citizen's ability and responsibility to throw off an oppressive federal government.

Those who penned the Second Amendment knew exactly what it meant - that's why the Second Amendment was included in our Bill of Rights! They discussed it amongst themselves, mainly via letters, but also in speeches given both in public as well as a matter of federal record. They knew full well they were arming the general population, and they did so in the hopes that it would keep the federal government honest.

Of course that's long before we violated the provision not to keep standing armies in times of peace. That is one matter which, because of the long ramp-up involving both training and technology, we need to keep a core cadre of military specifically focused on protecting our Country, and focused on their Constitutional Oath of Office, so that no one may ever allow civil authority to ever turn them against The People of this country.

This is why the recent legislation authorizing widespread military intervention into civilian affairs is such an utterly contemptable violation of that Oath of Office - it violates our Constitution. Those who passed it need to be booted for violating their oaths! They're not trustworthy to be in Congress. Their integrity stands in question due to the violations of their oaths.

It's why relativism is so dangerous to a free people. It's why when you let that bit of yeast into the batch of dough, it winds up working it's way through the entire batch of dough, souring the entire thing.

It's why we absolutely must have an absolute standard, a foundation for our Country, and why that foundation must begin with the one upon it was established: The Constitution of the United States of America.

When our Pledge of Allegiance was first established, I think they got it wrong. We shouldn't have been pledging allegiance to a colorful, but flimsy piece of cloth blown about by the wind. We should have been pledging allegiance to our "Constitution, and to the Republic, which rests firm on it."

Ok, so I'm not a poet... I am, however, a realist, and any shred of relativism in our country, if it's allowed to continue, will slowly erode our nation just as assuredly as ocean waves will erode a sand castle. We cannot allow the waves of relativism to wash away the foundation upon which our Republic stands.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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Yes. All others. Relativism says that a rapist is a good person relative to a mass murderer. Do you think that's wise?

[snip].

I promise that I reade all of your post.

You have what is termed a false premise, or, it could be termed a relative premise. A relativist will state a rapist is not as bad as a mass murderer. There are degrees of bad. Let's think about this - do you believe that all good deeds are equally good?
 

since9

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I promise that I reade all of your post.

Ok, Beretta92FSLady, I promise you that I've not only read all of your posts on this subject (I try to respond to them piecemeal), but I'll raise you a concern of mine: I in no way want to alienate you or any other from OpenCarry.org. Lots of people come here with varying opinions, some good, some bad. Here's where our varying opinions are tested in the fire of numerous opinions, some of whom have been in the furnace. With that in mind, I take everyone's opinions here seriously, albeit often with a grain of salt, depending on the circumstances surrounding their opinion.

You have what is termed a false premise, or, it could be termed a relative premise.

Well, that's pretty much what I said of your point, but instead of defending it, you simply said my own (many) points of view were all "false premise." Without substantiation.

A relativist will state a rapist is not as bad as a mass murderer. There are degrees of bad. Let's think about this - do you believe that all good deeds are equally good?

There are degrees of bad? I am by no means a "white and black" person, understanding that as the law applies in our lives it sometimes boils down to issues of grey. How's this as an idea to upend your world? I'd kill an uninvited intruder into my apartment in a heartbeat! Yet I often welcome invited guests for cookouts, movie nights, etc. How might you reconcile the two?

The latter often happens at my domicile, and has often happened through the years. I've yet to have to draw and fire on anyone, though I have had to toss two drunks. Eh?

So what in the world do your vague comments have to do with anything? Can you pin down your thoughts into something substantial, something with which we might take to take, so as to enact a difference in our society? Or are your ideas merely ethereal dreams void of either real or rational change in our world?
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Ok, Beretta92FSLady, I promise you that I've not only read all of your posts on this subject (I try to respond to them piecemeal), but I'll raise you a concern of mine: I in no way want to alienate you or any other from OpenCarry.org. Lots of people come here with varying opinions, some good, some bad. Here's where our varying opinions are tested in the fire of numerous opinions, some of whom have been in the furnace. With that in mind, I take everyone's opinions here seriously, albeit often with a grain of salt, depending on the circumstances surrounding their opinion.



Well, that's pretty much what I said of your point, but instead of defending it, you simply said my own (many) points of view were all "false premise." Without substantiation.



There are degrees of bad? I am by no means a "white and black" person, understanding that as the law applies in our lives it sometimes boils down to issues of grey. How's this as an idea to upend your world? I'd kill an uninvited intruder into my apartment in a heartbeat! Yet I often welcome invited guests for cookouts, movie nights, etc. How might you reconcile the two?

The latter often happens at my domicile, and has often happened through the years. I've yet to have to draw and fire on anyone, though I have had to toss two drunks. Eh?

So what in the world do your vague comments have to do with anything? Can you pin down your thoughts into something substantial, something with which we might take to take, so as to enact a difference in our society? Or are your ideas merely ethereal dreams void of either real or rational change in our world?

Ah, but if the drunk were to not leave, and be a threat to your life and limb, then what? Just as there are degrees of bad, there are degrees of intrusion. One might be invited into your home, but intrude in such a manner that would necessitate you decided whether to shoot them, or to be killed yourself.

Congress, IMO, are not terrorists, as the OP asserts. Congress has not officially declared war on American people. What is at issue here with me is not a general discussion regarding what Congress should, and should not be doing, rather, the direct implication that Congress is engaged in terrorist activities, and that Congress is declaring war on the American people.

I ask you: in all of this dialogue that individuals who are involved in politics at varying degrees engages in, and the terminology that they use, does it seems that what is occurring here is a complete breakdown in individuals of all political views to communicate in a common, constructive way? People demonize the other side, declare that the other side are terrorists, that they have the views of Hitler, what you create is a boiling pot of rhetoric where all sides paint themselves into a corner...and who would want to deal in a constructive way with others which they have made it their sole purpose to make all other sides the worse kind of persons to deal with. Basically, people better watch out how far they push things, because we are reaching a point in this Country where people will have lost their minds to passion, at the expense of reason. The torrent of sh*t that will come from my expression of a pretty solid opinion in this matter - go at it people. Individuals are under the impression that if President Obama is voted out, that everything with then be made "right." No, what will happen is the discourse will become much more uncivil, whether President Obama is elected to office a second term or not. Then what? Where do we draw the line? Do we vilify the other side, but at our own peril? It seems to me there are many people in this country that would rather cut off their nose than engage in civil discourse. Only time will tell. But the wave that seems to be building - not the wave of anger at the Government - but rather, the wave of anger between groups, can, and will reduce itself to a complete breakdown in the system of Government, in the system of civility, and what comes after that is violence, war.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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Can villans be villified?

A villain can be levied whatever you wish to levy them; if it is villainy, then so be it.

Villains are not actually villains, they are humans who engage in villainous acts - in answer to your question, no. A villain is not bad all the time, just like a good man is not good all the time. Although there are acts that the individual might engage in, it speaks to nothing more than a circumstantial villainy, and little to the total character of a person. I do not agree with this caricature villain that you assert exist. Life is not a comic book where there is good, and evil, but nothing in-between - there is no Superman OR Lex Luger.

There is also another term that is used - monster - that an individual is termed when they engage in what is considered a monsterous act.

What both terms - monster, villain - actually are intended for, either consciously, not, is to de-humanize the individual...and at the expense of what? Political gain? A struggle for more Power - for a tipping of Power from one side of the coin to the other? It eludes me how any person would think that electing a Republican into office would set us on any different of a course - a more palettable course? Individuals who vote for either party, or engage in the Nation's politics, engage in the system of this Government (the Founding Fathers reaching from their graves!), merely perpetuate, affirm, the Authority to Power the Government holds. No matter the vote, it is a mandate to the Authority to Power.

What Americans should first decide is whether or not the Union should remain intact. The next thing that Americans should do, if Americans are interested in keeping the Union intact is...scrap the Constitution. There needs to be a reevaluation, and revaluation of all aspects of the way America is Governed, and the way Americans engage one another. Sadly, all man knows is war. Man is currently incapable of a reasonableness to the extent that reason would win-out over passion. I know it sounds rather pessimistic, and Pragmatic, right (do not confuse the two as being necessarily related in this context)? Considering the circumstances of men, that they are so varying, Practicality is the only reasonable course if individuals of so many different types are going to inhabit the same society. Don't mistaken anything that I have stated here as some Idealistic, or Utopian plea.
 
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wrightme

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What Americans should first decide is whether or not the Union should remain intact. The next thing that Americans should do, if Americans are interested in keeping the Union intact is...scrap the Constitution.

What do you base that view upon? Is that the source of your silly posts? To you, the Constitution and BoR isn't good for the country? If that is it, WHAT makes you feel that way?
 

Daylen

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I'll go with what the pro's say a villan is: a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel. -dictonary.com I'll stick to speaking ill of those who are malicious, I don't care to be nice to those who would try to harm me.

At this point I'm fine with the Union breaking up. Some States have almost irreconcilible differences; some want one form of tyranny, others want a different form and a bunch of states want to be left alone. However, the Union can easily continue with the constitution as is, if we return to abiding by it instead of trying to use it as a way to tell people in other states how to live.
 

1245A Defender

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well,,,

A villain can be levied whatever you wish to levy them; if it is villainy, then so be it.

Villains are not actually villains, they are humans who engage in villainous acts - in answer to your question, no. A villain is not bad all the time, just like a good man is not good all the time. Although there are acts that the individual might engage in, it speaks to nothing more than a circumstantial villainy, and little to the total character of a person. I do not agree with this caricature villain that you assert exist. Life is not a comic book where there is good, and evil, but nothing in-between - there is no Superman OR Lex Luger.

There is also another term that is used - monster - that an individual is termed when they engage in what is considered a monsterous act.

What both terms - monster, villain - actually are intended for, either consciously, not, is to de-humanize the individual...and at the expense of what? Political gain? A struggle for more Power - for a tipping of Power from one side of the coin to the other? It eludes me how any person would think that electing a Republican into office would set us on any different of a course - a more palettable course? Individuals who vote for either party, or engage in the Nation's politics, engage in the system of this Government (the Founding Fathers reaching from their graves!), merely perpetuate, affirm, the Authority to Power the Government holds. No matter the vote, it is a mandate to the Authority to Power.

What Americans should first decide is whether or not the Union should remain intact. The next thing that Americans should do, if Americans are interested in keeping the Union intact is...scrap the Constitution. There needs to be a reevaluation, and revaluation of all aspects of the way America is Governed, and the way Americans engage one another. Sadly, all man knows is war. Man is currently incapable of a reasonableness to the extent that reason would win-out over passion. I know it sounds rather pessimistic, and Pragmatic, right (do not confuse the two as being necessarily related in this context)? Considering the circumstances of men, that they are so varying, Practicality is the only reasonable course if individuals of so many different types are going to inhabit the same society. Don't mistaken anything that I have stated here as some Idealistic, or Utopian plea.

What Americans should first decide is whether or not the Union should remain intact. The next thing that Americans should do, if Americans are interested in keeping the Union intact is...Preserve, Protect, and Defend the Constitution Of The United States Of America!!!

TIFIFY!!!!!
 

Swordsmyth

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I love the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence. I believe the founding fathers were highly educated men. They did their best to bequeath to this nation a set of laws that would allow us to be free men and women.

The problem is not with the Constitution or Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence!

The problem is people thinking said instruments grant them anything.

We don't have "Constitutional Rights" we have rights granted to us from God at birth.

Article 9 of the Bill of Rights states: "The enumeration of the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

So you see these rights existed at birth, they didn't suddenly spring up with the creation of the aforementioned documents.

We only have these rights if we "exercise" them, ie; live them!

The reason our founding documents were created was for the sole purpose of restraining government, nothing more. It was created as a noose for them, not us.

If you actually read these documents you will see that the federal government was granted a very limited amount of power. The states were given the supreme power.

Is that actually how it operates today? Absolutely not! The idea though, was correct.

Government was created as our servant. Now we are the servants(slaves). Is the light bulb coming on yet?:idea:

We unfortunately have done what Jefferson warned us about, we have awakened from our slumber only to find that we have become slaves upon the shores our forefathers fought so hard to possess.

If we continue to base our lives on laws written by man, which is changeable at his whim, we will end up at the same destination every time!

I choose to follow the supreme law of the land which has been operating on this planet since day one.

God's law doesn't change!
 

Beretta92FSLady

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What do you base that view upon? Is that the source of your silly posts? To you, the Constitution and BoR isn't good for the country? If that is it, WHAT makes you feel that way?

I seem to have hit a nerve with my post. I am sure this is not the only one. Now, some of you have already ran off from the sandbox with your toys - the rest, thanks for staying aboard.

I stated that we should scrap the Constitution, but that was after I stated that we should reevaluate, and revalue...I believe I stated Principles (if not, that was my point in stating reevaluate, and revalue). I said nothing about the Constitution, nor the BoR not being good for the Country. I will state this, the System is flawed, and it is collapsing. Bring it on nay-sayers!

Everything that I had to state, is in my post. Or, you could take the easy route, and ignore me like HanydHamlot had done, LOL.


1245A,

How we hold so dearly, on Principle I am sure, to flawed Systems of Government. When so much more awaits us if we take a step back, and reexamine what the point in all of this is, and if the Constitution is sufficient or not, and if it is not, what changes must be made. People are so prideful, it makes me sick. They would rather go down with the ship than figure out a viable, lasting solution to real problems that exist in the System, and amongst Americans.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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[snip]

Government was created as our servant. Now we are the servants(slaves). Is the light bulb coming on yet?:idea:

[snip]

I don't have much time, and refuse to respond line-for-line - not to be rude.

The moment a System is created, and embraced, the individual is rendered a slave, by his own hand. The question is: To what degree of enslavement are you willing to go to perpetuate a System that by its Nature, enslaves those within it?

I will give you a minute to think about this.

With regard to your reference to God - just another System. Sure, I know you would have all people believe, if you could, that God actually inspired men to write the Bible (in its fragmented Glory). That's fine that you do. But keep your notion of God out of my System, your System, of slavery. It is enough to have one System of slavery. If you wish to embrace a second, then so be it, go for it, I wish you well.
 
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