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Thread: Traffic stop, while armed. questions...amount of compliance needed.

  1. #1
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Traffic stop, while armed. questions...amount of compliance needed.

    Ive not yet had the pleasure of being pulled over while armed...just curious, say for instance, I choose to hand the officer my CCL and DL at the same time...he/she asks if im armed..i say yes....can the officer then ask to see the firearm in order to run a check on the serial number?

    Similar situation, a person is OC, and doesnt posess a CCL....and the officer asks to see the gun...

    What are compliance requirements for this...would it be different becuase the person is operating a motor vehicle?

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    I would think that wanting to run a check on your gun would be the same as wanting to do a search of your car. Who would have a CCL and carry a stolen firearm?
    Were not all lawbreakers and criminals. The police better get trained and get their act together.

  3. #3
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    A Concealed Weapons Licensee is required only to "display his license document and photographic identification card ... upon request of" the cop. Act 35 does not say surrender the documents or weapon.

    Absent being issued a CWL, absent driving, Wisconsin Statutes Subsection 968.24 requires RAS of a crime intended, in progress or committed for the cop to demand name and address. This subsection does not require surrender of the documents and does not mention weapon.

    Terry v. Ohio held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and frisks him without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous." (392 U.S. 1, at 30.) These are the same standards of RAS as in §968.24.

    The Fourth and Fifth Amendment Rights to be secure in one's effects and against self-incrimination should prohibit being required to submit to a serial number check but that will require a Wisconsin test case.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 12-05-2011 at 05:40 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    what made me wonder about this...as i was sitting here laughing...listening to Columbia county sheriffs dept on the scanner...someone got stopped...currently suspended DL...several past OARs, i think a DUI was mentioned...then the deputy started to have dispatch run serials on 5 firearms that were in this guys posession...dont know if they were in the trunk or where... thats what got me wondering...

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    Another case for not offering up more info that is absolutely necessary.....
    <-----Leading by example....while armed

    Wisconsin democrats are a tough bunch, and you know what they say-- "when the going gets tough...."

    A "No Guns" sign protects me as much as a speed limit sign keeps people from speeding.

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    While it sucks the officer can take possession of a firearm during a stop for "officer safety". He could then run numbers.

  7. #7
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bforn View Post
    While it sucks the officer can take possession of a firearm during a stop for "officer safety". He could then run numbers.
    CAN he take posession for 'officer safety'??

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    He can ask all he wants, but you are not required to allow him.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Campaign Veteran GlockMeisterG21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    CAN he take posession for 'officer safety'??
    It is my understanding that he can. Under the scenario of a traffic stop you are being temporarily detained with Probable Cause that a crime has been committed. If he didn't have PC then he couldn't pull you over. Once he finds out you have a firearm he may Terry stop you for "his safety and the safety of others" and take possession of your firearm. A Terry is not normally performed because under normal circumstances it's almost as annoying for the officer as it is for you. However if you get a cop who is on the fence, anti carry, or it's the local departments policy to terry permit holders than he may Terry stop you. FYI IANAL nor do I play one on tv.


    My advice is do not volunteer any info especially if you are a CHL permit holder.
    Last edited by GlockMeisterG21; 12-05-2011 at 11:52 PM.
    “The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.” — Col. Jeff Cooper, GUNS & AMMO, January 2002

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    The obvious answer to me is don't cough up the CWL if it isn't asked for with lawful authority and you don't need to worry about them running the numbers and being a test case.

    It's not easy for them to have "lawful authority" if you don't give it to them.

    If they did find out you are carrying, they probably will use the Terry stop criteria to temporarily seize your weapon for "officer safety". I'm pretty sure the courts have given extensive leeway in this area, even for cursory car searches which is why you lock the door behind you if asked to get out of your car to leave no "officer safety" excuse to search it.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 12-05-2011 at 11:58 PM.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockMeisterG21 View Post
    It is my understanding that he can. Under the scenario of a traffic stop you are being temporarily detained with Probable Cause that a crime has been committed.
    I guess you didn't get the memo?

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...93#post1661893

    "Yes, of course we are going to stop lots of innocent people. The point is, do folks understand what their role is as a cooperative citizen in having a safe environment." Flynn said.

    "That level of inconvenience, if it's coupled with respectful treatment, is something communities will accept to be safe. If the price of me walking down my neighborhood in safety is once a month (a police officer stops me), people are going to say 'That's OK with me, it's about time we saw the cops here.' "
    The Constitution nor law means anything around these parts.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    When pulled over for a traffic stop do you need to inform the officer your carrying or just hand him your DL and insurance?

  13. #13
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Never talk to the police.



    And on a side note, this video has been watched over a million times.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 12-06-2011 at 06:36 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  14. #14
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockMeisterG21 View Post
    It is my understanding that he can. Under the scenario of a traffic stop you are being temporarily detained with Probable Cause that a crime has been committed. If he didn't have PC then he couldn't pull you over.
    Neither a warrant nor Probable Cause are required for a traffic stop arrest, but only "reasonable grounds." (Wisc. Stats. §345.22). Subsequent actions authorized after an unwarranted arrest do not include any rights violations (Wisc. Stats. §345.23).

  15. #15
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by bspiller View Post
    When pulled over for a traffic stop do you need to inform the officer your carrying or just hand him your DL and insurance?
    Volunteer nothing. You are not required to speak. Everything that you say will be used against you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wisc. Stats. § 175.60(2g)(c)
    ... a licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display his or her license document and photographic identification card ... to a law enforcement officer upon the request of the law enforcement officer while the law enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority. NOTE: Sub. (2g) is created eff. 11−1−11 by 2011 Wis. Act 35.
    It is not yet established law that a traffic stop provides lawful authority to request your CWL. I am not a lawyer and I am not blindly compliant.

    My last traffic stop was in 1977. At my next traffic stop I intend to acknowledge the order to stop by pulling out of the traffic lane with my emergency flashers and dome light on and proceed safely to where I am safe from traffic and so is the cop. I will exit my vehicle with papers, DL, registration and insurance certificate, and voice recorder in hand and secure my vehicle by locking the doors with window rolled up. I will walk to the front of my vehicle and to the right hand side away from traffic to turn and face the officer. I will not resist and will not allow an extra-legal violation of my Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights. I will not speak beyond monosyllables and to inform the officer of my intent to exercise my rights and to demand my attorney.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Volunteer nothing. You are not required to speak. Everything that you say will be used against you.It is not yet established law that a traffic stop provides lawful authority to request your CWL. I am not a lawyer and I am not blindly compliant.

    My last traffic stop was in 1977. At my next traffic stop I intend to acknowledge the order to stop by pulling out of the traffic lane with my emergency flashers and dome light on and proceed safely to where I am safe from traffic and so is the cop. I will exit my vehicle with papers, DL, registration and insurance certificate, and voice recorder in hand and secure my vehicle by locking the doors with window rolled up. I will walk to the front of my vehicle and to the right hand side away from traffic to turn and face the officer. I will not resist and will not allow an extra-legal violation of my Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights. I will not speak beyond monosyllables and to inform the officer of my intent to exercise my rights and to demand my attorney.
    this time of year Im not exiting my VW ...and neither should you! :-)

  17. #17
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    as fate would have it...i got a speeding ticket this afternoon..UGh... i think Im gonna go with the 'If they dont ask, Im not goona tell 'em '

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    as fate would have it...i got a speeding ticket this afternoon..UGh... i think Im gonna go with the 'If they dont ask, Im not goona tell 'em '
    Were you carrying and did the cop ask?
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Other than with states like OH that require it, telling the police more than they ask for is not necessary, and generally not in your best interest. Traffic stops have nothing to do with firearms. It should stay that way.

    If (it has never happened to me in 40+ years of OC and CC) an officer wanted to disarm me for "officer safety" (I personally do not think that is legal BTW) I would explain to him that my carry is not a danger to anyone as long as it stays in it's holster. However, when removed from it's holster, it is a danger to him, me and the public in general, and for that reason I would refuse to allow it to be removed from it's holster.... unless he was going to arrest me for some crime and a traffic infraction is not a crime.

  20. #20
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Yes, I was armed...and he didnt ask...

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    Yes, I was armed...and he didnt ask...
    So you went with "don't ask don't tell" this time or will the next time?

    Sorry, maybe I'm missing something...
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  22. #22
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    sorry...yes, I was armed, he didnt ask...and i didnt tell...

  23. #23
    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Never talk to the police.
    I've got one that'll work well too: Never give the police a reason to pull you over in the first place.
    Proud Veteran ~ U.S. Army / Army Reserve

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  24. #24
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Volunteer nothing. You are not required to speak. Everything that you say will be used against you.It is not yet established law that a traffic stop provides lawful authority to request your CWL. I am not a lawyer and I am not blindly compliant.

    My last traffic stop was in 1977. At my next traffic stop I intend to acknowledge the order to stop by pulling out of the traffic lane with my emergency flashers and dome light on and proceed safely to where I am safe from traffic and so is the cop. I will exit my vehicle with papers, DL, registration and insurance certificate, and voice recorder in hand and secure my vehicle by locking the doors with window rolled up. I will walk to the front of my vehicle and to the right hand side away from traffic to turn and face the officer. I will not resist and will not allow an extra-legal violation of my Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights. I will not speak beyond monosyllables and to inform the officer of my intent to exercise my rights and to demand my attorney.
    DO NOT!!! EVER exit your vehicle on a traffic stop unless they ask you too. That is a really good way to get SHOT! In this story: http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=498301 people that know the victim (the guy that was shot) said that he 9mm Mak was probably in his truck and was used to cover up the shooting....the think no-one disputes is that he exited his vehicle before the cop got there....and was shot for his efforts.

  25. #25
    Regular Member msteinhilber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    DO NOT!!! EVER exit your vehicle on a traffic stop unless they ask you too. That is a really good way to get SHOT! In this story: http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=498301 people that know the victim (the guy that was shot) said that he 9mm Mak was probably in his truck and was used to cover up the shooting....the think no-one disputes is that he exited his vehicle before the cop got there....and was shot for his efforts.
    I agree, I open my window just a ways to be able to speak and hand my license/proof of insurance and that's it - so they can't pull their sniff test ******** and say they smelled something and have to search. If they ask me out of my vehicle, I shut off my vehicle, exit and lock up behind myself.

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