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Thread: How is 'open carry' defined?

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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    How is 'open carry' defined?

    I thought I read this once, but cannot find it, either on these threads or in the statutes. How does Missouri define 'open' or 'open carry'? I have been unable to find it. If it is in the statutes, please state the statute so I can look it up. Basically, can I take my pocket holster and slip that inside my belt, but still visible, and count that as 'open carry'? Doing that would be much easier than strapping on my belt holster. (For short trips, such as to the dumpster and back.) Thanks!
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    (Again, sorry is this is a re-post, but I couldn't find anything on the subject.)
    Last edited by HighFlyingA380; 12-05-2011 at 07:16 PM.

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    Firearm is visible from more than one angle. Unfortunately that "angle" is not defined. I would cite it but I forget where it was that I read it, should have cataloged it.

    Now why is it defined in such a way? Visible in your vehicle is open carry as well and you can get charged for the rifle in the gun rack of the pick up.

    Now lets take a close look at the question, you have asked for legal advice, no one can give you that but a lawyer.

    My own interpretation of the laws I have read on open carry are a mix of open and concealed carry statutes. In other words, if it does not qualify as concealed carry or container carry, it is indeed open carry IMHO, you should seek a lawyers professional opinion for your own decisions.

    1. Concealed means covered up so that no part of the firearm is visible, not to be mistaken with printing laws of other states IE if it is under your shirt but anyone can tell it is a firearm it remains a concealed firearm, other states vary.

    2. If it is in a container IE gun case or other package that completely encloses the firearm where no part is visible it is container carry, though I do not recall ever seeing statutes about container carry for the state of Missouri, more the federal transportation law.

    3. If it can be seen, any part of the firearm, it is open carry.

    Again, this was not legal advice, only your own lawyer can give you that, and yes, you should ask one, your freedom could depend upon it.
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    Did not see the photo prior to posting, without any doubt, that is OPENLY CARRYING A FIREARM under the ordinances I have reviewed that restrict it.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member xdmcompact's Avatar
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    Would like to know how a rifle on a gun rack in the window of your truck, will get you charged with open carrying a weapon? Castle doctrine allows for any means of carry in your home and vehicle in MO, without a CCW. Municipalities with OC bans can not even restrict your vehicle, just like the private properties OC events are held on in muni's with OC bans. Don't put it past them to try and arrest or charge someone even though they are covered by the Castle Doctrine.

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    Might want to review the statutes again XD, you will find that the car carry law covers concealable ie 16" or less, CONCEALED carry by all persons legal to own.

    A 357 on the dash will get you an open carry violation as will a rifle/shotgun in the window rack not in a case.

    It is indeed the only successful OC prosecution I am aware of in the state, a shot gun in a gun rack, stl proper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Might want to review the statutes again XD, you will find that the car carry law covers concealable ie 16" or less, CONCEALED carry by all persons legal to own.

    A 357 on the dash will get you an open carry violation as will a rifle/shotgun in the window rack not in a case.

    It is indeed the only successful OC prosecution I am aware of in the state, a shot gun in a gun rack, stl proper.

    If the statue you are referring to is

    3. Subdivisions (1), (5), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section do not apply when the actor is transporting such weapons in a nonfunctioning state or in an unloaded state when ammunition is not readily accessible or when such weapons are not readily accessible. Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state. Subdivision (10) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply if the firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed by a person while traversing school premises for the purposes of transporting a student to or from school, or possessed by an adult for the purposes of facilitation of a school-sanctioned firearm-related event or club event.
    Then if we look at Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 we find it says

    Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties.
    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or
    You will note that Subsection 3 is to provide exceptions to Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 (i.e. concealed weapons), it makes no mention anywhere in subsection 1 of Section 571-030 to "openly" displayed weapons. The reference to "exposed" weapon in subsection 3 is also stating when it is allowable to carry a concealed weapon without permit(when hunting), note the word "also"

    To be honest, I can find nowhere in the State Statues that criminalizes carrying a weapon openly in your vehicle.
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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    To continue with the hijack of my own thread... Doesn't the peaceable journey exemption allow for the open or concealed carry of any firearm anywhere in the vehicle, even on the person (assuming they are of legal age to possess the firearm)?

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    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    The following is a state law defining a concealed weapon:

    62.1-04-01. Definition of concealed. A firearm or dangerous weapon is concealed if it is carried in such a manner as to not be discernible by the ordinary observation of a passerby. There is no requirement that there be absolute invisibility of the firearm or dangerous weapon, merely that it not be ordinarily discernible

    SO..........I found this definition, and its probably NOT worded exactly for Missouri,but......as long as its not covered, its not concealed.SO... Open Carry could be defined as," A firearm or dangerous weapon carried in such a manner as to be discernible by the ordinary observation of a passerby."
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    To be honest, I can find nowhere in the State Statues that criminalizes carrying a weapon openly in your vehicle.
    There is no state statute on open carry, only muni ones.

    It would not be a state charge but a muni ordinance violation just like open carrying on your hip.

    The state statute specifically allows concealable firearms to be concealed in your car with or without a permit, assumed legal possession requirements met IE not a felon. That statute uses the term concealable, meaning under 16 so it is a pistol or I suppose a SBR if you qualify to have one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    To continue with the hijack of my own thread... Doesn't the peaceable journey exemption allow for the open or concealed carry of any firearm anywhere in the vehicle, even on the person (assuming they are of legal age to possess the firearm)?
    Peaceable journey requires a case and unloaded.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Peaceable journey requires a case and unloaded.
    This is a portion of the MO Highway Patrol pamphlet concerning concealed carry. Specifically, look at the first and last one on this picture. Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    This is a portion of the MO Highway Patrol pamphlet concerning concealed carry. Specifically, look at the first and last one on this picture. Click image for larger version. 

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    Sir,

    All due respect, you have to understand we are discussing SEVERAL separate laws as they apply.

    1. MO CCW statutes refrence "concealable firearms" not long guns.
    2. Open carry ordinances, specifically the ones in the stl metro area, most of which I have read and discussed in detail both here and on mocarry use the language "firearm" and the legal definitions are concealable = 16" or less butt to barrel tip, firearms = it uses powder actuated projectile cartridges.
    3. Federal peaceable journey law which is about the only thing that might allow you to drive through PRIL without spending a great deal of time in jail for having a firearm at all and even then depending upon your lawyer the mileage may vary.

    Missouri laws apply here and a loaded concealed weapon in your car is 100% legal, but the legal definition of a concealed weapon does NOT include a rifle or shotgun of over 16" in length, the end.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member RPGamingGirl's Avatar
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    Backing up the the original question, i would say that the pic *should* represent correct open carry BUT, unfortunately (?), a lot of interpretation is left up to individual LEOs...as in, technically yeah, your weapon is outside of your clothes and unobstructed, but some officers might think that since it visually blends in with the black shirt that looks like it could fall and cover the weapon at any time, you might get some kind of trouble about it. I wouldn't expect it, but be prepared for it to at least be a gray area, know what i mean?
    Last edited by RPGamingGirl; 12-07-2011 at 01:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    I thought I read this once, but cannot find it, either on these threads or in the statutes. How does Missouri define 'open' or 'open carry'? I have been unable to find it. If it is in the statutes, please state the statute so I can look it up. Basically, can I take my pocket holster and slip that inside my belt, but still visible, and count that as 'open carry'? Doing that would be much easier than strapping on my belt holster. (For short trips, such as to the dumpster and back.) Thanks!
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	7542Such as seen here

    (Again, sorry is this is a re-post, but I couldn't find anything on the subject.)
    That does not look secure... Is there velcro or a clip on that? If I were an LEO, I would stop you to ask that. But if were an LEO, I would have a different attitude than i do now
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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterarthur View Post
    That does not look secure... Is there velcro or a clip on that? If I were an LEO, I would stop you to ask that. But if were an LEO, I would have a different attitude than i do now
    No, there is no velcro or clip; It's just a chap Blackhawk! Sportster pocket holster. I tighten the belt down pretty good, so it's not that loose. Takes a good yank to get it out. Probably better passive retention than my factory XD holster. As I said tho, this is not how I normally carry, just for a quick walk out the the dumpster or to the mailbox. A few minutes at the most. Since I don't have my CCW yet, I can't just slip it in my pocket, and I have better access this way.

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