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Thread: Not your usual robbery.....

  1. #1
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    Not your usual robbery.....

    Just saw this on another forum and thought it was a fresh story. I found it interesting since many of us regard OC as a deterrent and give little credibility to the claim that it means you are targeted first.

    Teen homicide suspects have criminal histories

    Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.

    Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

    "The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.

    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2...ns-ar-1510369/

    Like always there is a lot we don't know here. Just because one person says it was plainly visible doesn't mean the kid saw it. They followed him to the station so presumably he was in a car and they wouldn't have seen the gun. There is no indication whether he might have known them or how they targeted him.
    Last edited by ecocks; 12-09-2011 at 02:14 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    The link you provided was no longer working, but folks can read the article here:

    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2...ns-ar-1510369/


    So this looks like it may perhaps be the FIRST ever incident of a legitimate "gun grab" from an OCer. It is doubly unfortunate that the victim was not only robbed of his firearm, but also murdered, and then later another person was murdered by the perps.

    It would be interesting to find out what sort of holster Tyler was wearing, and what sort of gun he was carrying. I'd bet that it was NOT an active-retention holster (or even had a thumb-break retention strap), and that it was, in fact, a holster designed for CC, but for some reason he had it uncovered. I'm not faulting the victim, but it will be interesting to see just what the actual details of his mode of carry were, than allowed a 16-year-old kid to disarm him and steal his firearm.

    However, this is not to blame the victim. The CAUSE of this event was NOT the mode of carry, the type of holster, or even the egregious lack of Situational Awareness of the victim.

    The CAUSE was the depraved, sociopathic, utter disregard for human life displayed by the BG.

    We need to put the blame where it REALLY belongs--on the CRIMINAL--because no matter HOW a law-abiding citizen is carrying a legally-possessed firearm, it can NEVER be stole and used for nefarious reasons if a CRIMINAL doesn't decide they want to prey on that law-abiding citizen.


    However, everyone KNOWS that his story is OBVIOUSLY made-up, false, and fictional.

    First off, the perps had felony convictions, so they were ineligible to possess a firearm. (the perp was convicted in 2010 of malicious wounding, grand larceny and burglary--when he was FIFTEEN YEARS OLD!!!)

    Second, the perp was 16 years old, and therefore under Federal and VA law, it was illegal for him to possess a firearm even if he had a clean record, unless he was under direct adult supervision, and even then, carrying a handgun would not be legal.

    Third, robbery, assault, and murder are ALL illegal, so there is no way that some kids would be engaged in this sort of activity.

    And fourth, the victim, Tyler, had a CC permit, and everyone knows that those are magical talismans against any sort of violent crime...

    <sarcasm OFF>
    Last edited by Dreamer; 12-06-2011 at 11:12 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    If I am reading this correctly, the carrier was chasing the perp before the gun was taken. If that is the case, this is not a simple gun-grab. It is an encounter actively participated in by a carrier (who seems to be CC) that went horribly wrong, not a BG seeing an OCer and grabbing the gun.

    As one of the arguments against OC is the possible opportunistic grabbing of an OC'ed gun, this story would be irrelevant in supporting or refuting that argument.

    It is an interesting insight into encounters with BGs. I see my firearm as a means of being successful against a BG at a distance. I have no intention of chasing one down to encounter him up close!

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    According to the article he had a CC license but was OCing at the time of the incident. The next bit the article is unclear on. Was the victim shot while attempting to prevent the BG from taking his gun (as in guy attempts to grab, he tries to stop him, BG wins in getting control and shoots him), or did he chase after the BG after losing control of the gun and get shot? Regardless it is still horrible what happened, but if he did chase after the BG after having his gun taken from him then I would say that action was...unwise. This incident also has me more seriously thinking about an off-hand BUG for if/when OC becomes legal in OK (yes I know the chances are astronomical but it does highlight how a BUG would have been better than chasing after the guy).

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post

    ...This incident also has me more seriously thinking about an off-hand BUG for if/when OC becomes legal in OK (yes I know the chances are astronomical but it does highlight how a BUG would have been better than chasing after the guy).
    Great point!

    Reading of this horrific account has reinforced in my mind that I NEED to continue carrying my BUG in my hip pocket, in addition to my primary weapon in my hip holster.
    Last edited by MilProGuy; 12-07-2011 at 12:41 PM.
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    Great point!

    Reading of this horrific account has reinforced in my mind that I NEED to continue carrying my BUG in my hip pocket, in addition to my primary weapon in my hip holster.
    What this story should have everyone thinking about is the preconceived notions we have about that theoretical attacker we have in our heads. That tragic attack can come at any time, in any situation, in any location, and from ANY person. The stereotypical thug, meth-head, or crazy ex-employee that we often run scenarios about are probably NOT going to the the one that actually occurs.

    It could be a 100lb woman. It could be an old man. It could be a kid barely old enough to have a drivers license. Dismiss ALL the prejudices and preconceived notions you have about that theoretical attacker, and just BE AWARE all the time you are carrying. Don't get distracted. Don't get wrapped up in conversations when in public. Don't stand at the magazine rack in a store engrossed in the lasted Massad Ayoub story in Guns and Ammo. Don't walk around dark parking lots with your earbuds cranking the latest podcast from "GunTalk".

    Be aware. Be awake. Be observant. Be vigilant.

    And most of all, don't ever dismiss ANYONE as a potential threat based on their looks, age, or size.

    "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
    Last edited by Dreamer; 12-07-2011 at 12:06 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    You're right, "donny".

    People who have to travel through or live in high-crime areas just need to accept their fate, and cower like sheep, and pray to whatever deity they see fit that some scumbag sociopath nut-case isn't going to rob, rape, or murder them on a whim. And HOLY ****, they shouldn't attempt to prepare to defend themselves, or even make an appearance of not being a willing victim, because THAT just taunts the BGs into more violent behavior.

    Everyone needs to just lay down and take it, and accept their lot in life.

    <sarcasm OFF>


    You, sir, are a sick, sick individual.

    I'm starting to wonder if you aren't a Brady mole or something...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  8. #8
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    You, sir, are a sick, sick individual.

    I'm starting to wonder if you aren't a Brady mole or something...
    I wouldn't say that he was/is "sick", but I do think that in high crime areas that is where you should display your firearm. OC is so much faster to draw from than CC, so when you think that you might need your firearm OC is the way to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I wouldn't say that he was/is "sick", but I do think that in high crime areas that is where you should display your firearm. OC is so much faster to draw from than CC, so when you think that you might need your firearm OC is the way to go.
    When you think you might need your firearm, the way to go is the other way.

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    Ignore Donny. He has been waiting for probably 3 years (1 and 1/2 definitively) and this single isolated incident to have anything even remotely worthwhile to say.

    Of course in comparison to thousands of open carry activities occurring daily, he is overjoyed that this has happened once, one single time, in the recorded history of OCDO. Everybody needs their one little moment, even if its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
    Last edited by slowfiveoh; 12-07-2011 at 10:31 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    What this story should have everyone thinking about is the preconceived notions we have about that theoretical attacker we have in our heads. That tragic attack can come at any time, in any situation, in any location, and from ANY person. The stereotypical thug, meth-head, or crazy ex-employee that we often run scenarios about are probably NOT going to the the one that actually occurs.

    It could be a 100lb woman. It could be an old man. It could be a kid barely old enough to have a drivers license. Dismiss ALL the prejudices and preconceived notions you have about that theoretical attacker, and just BE AWARE all the time you are carrying. Don't get distracted. Don't get wrapped up in conversations when in public. Don't stand at the magazine rack in a store engrossed in the lasted Massad Ayoub story in Guns and Ammo. Don't walk around dark parking lots with your earbuds cranking the latest podcast from "GunTalk".

    Be aware. Be awake. Be observant. Be vigilant.

    And most of all, don't ever dismiss ANYONE as a potential threat based on their looks, age, or size.

    "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
    You're assuming that we had preconceived notions of what our attacker would be like. While I'm sure some people do, I know that I never have and I'm sure other people have been the same way. But yes, if one had such notions before they need to get rid of those ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by donny View Post
    And don't walk in a high crime urban area with an openly displayed handgun. To do so, like the other things mentioned, borders on stupidity.
    A single incident doesn't back up your statement. In fact there has been a post on this very forum of OCing stopping a robbery in Youngstown (sp?) even though that place has been the murder/crime capital of the US multiple years. Yes carrying in such places brings with it an increased risk, but simply being there has an increased risk and there's nothing to back up the theory that residents/visitors of such high crime places are at a greatly increased risk of being targeted for crime (if one were to carry in such a bad place then it is up to them and the choice should be made based off of their knowledge of the local streets) compared to those in the same area that aren't carrying.

    And as there's no data to back it up that's why it is a theory and not fact.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    When you think you might need your firearm, the way to go is the other way.
    OF COURSE, how could I miss that. Because we are always just strolling in the bad part of town, or walking to a liquor store with two hoods hanging out front acting shifty.

    Or maybe you're walking to your car after closing where you work.
    Or you could be changing a flat tire on the side of the road at night.
    Or you could be just sitting around watching TV and hear something near your shed. Don't go see if it is a possum in your trash, it could be someone.

    I don't carry a gun because I want to be some kind of hero. I carry because I want every possible chance to come home. So I am not going to quit a job because I have to work after dark, or I won't refuse to drive home from a late movie because the chance I might break down. Most of us here carry because we have been in a situation that could have went way worse and refuse to be a victim. We don't quit our lifes because our neighborhood isn't what it used to be.

    Yea, don't go looking for trouble, but the thing about life is: trouble will find you.

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