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Thread: Open carrier killed with his own gun

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Open carrier killed with his own gun

    It's been a long time since I've posted here, or even visited here, but I saw this on another forum and thought you all should know.

    Apparently it finally happened.

    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/n...ns-ar-1510369/
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    This is tragic, but it should be a lesson to us all that we cannot let up on our own personal "situational awareness" when we are outside the sanctity of our homes.
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    I'm a little confused, did he chase them in to the station? If so, he was wrong. It's hard to say what he could have done differently without knowing all the details. It's definitely tragic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xarmy9 View Post
    I'm a little confused, did he chase them in to the station? If so, he was wrong. It's hard to say what he could have done differently without knowing all the details. It's definitely tragic.
    If I understood the article correctly, according to the court papers, the chase (Tyler chasing Smith) occurred inside after Smith and Hamiel followed Tyler inside the building. Tyler was chasing Smith inside the store because Smith took Tyler's holstered gun during the struggle.

    ETA: Existing Thread in the Virginia subforum

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...led-Richmonder
    Last edited by SpringerXDacp; 12-07-2011 at 03:01 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    By: Reed Williams
    Published: December 03, 2011
    Updated: December 03, 2011 - 11:05 PM
    » 13 Comments | Post a Comment

    The 16-year-old accused of killing two people in less than seven hours last week in Richmond has several felony convictions, including one for a violent crime.

    [b]Toby Smith Jr. is accused of stealing Blaine Tyler's gun inside a gas station last week and fatally shooting him after Tyler chased Smith inside the store.[b]

    The Richmond teenager also is accused of fatally shooting Pierre Walter "Pete" Cosby hours later in an attempted robbery in the Oak Grove neighborhood in South Richmond.

    Smith, who was arrested Monday and charged in last week's two killings, was convicted in 2010 of malicious wounding, grand larceny and burglary, according to court papers filed in Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court.

    Tyee Marquel Hamiel, another 16-year-old Richmonder, also faces charges in Tyler's killing but not in Cosby's. Hamiel's criminal history includes convictions in 2007 of grand larceny and malicious wounding, according to court records.

    Smith and Hamiel also were convicted of attempted grand larceny on the same day in August of this year, the records show.

    "This isn't the first time that they've been in trouble together," said Richmond Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Andy Johnson.

    Johnson declined to discuss the specifics of the suspects' prior cases because they involve juvenile records, including what sentences they received.

    The court records were filed this week as part of the discovery process for the current cases against Smith and Hamiel. The documents do not list sentencing information or details about the crimes.

    Judge Marilynn C. Goss of Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court denied a motion by a Richmond Times-Dispatch reporter to view portions of the case files for the previous convictions. She ruled that the prior hearings were closed and that the information on the cases, including any sentences handed down, would remain confidential.

    Johnson, speaking generally about juvenile cases, said it is rare in Richmond for a juvenile to be sent to detention after his or her case is adjudicated.

    "Our goal is to try to get through to these kids before they become adults so we don't automatically lock them up every time they do something wrong," he said.

    However, in the cases now pending against Smith and Hamiel, prosecutors will try to have the teens tried as adults and, if the suspects are convicted of murder charges, they could face up to life in adult prison.

    Smith's attorney, Robert D. Shrader Jr., and Hamiel's attorney, John G. Lafratta, declined to discuss the cases against their clients.

    No one answered the door Friday at the home of Smith's mother in the 300 block of East 11th Street in the Blackwell neighborhood in South Richmond. Court papers list that address as the home of Smith but also give another address for him.

    A woman who answered the door Friday at Hamiel's mother's home at the Midlothian Village Apartments in South Richmond said she would have no comment. No one came to the door at the home Hamiel shared with a sister in the 2400 block of Atwell Lane near Jefferson Davis Highway and Bellemeade Road.

    Authorities say last week's homicides both involved a robbery or attempted robberies, but it was unclear why or how each victim was selected. Also unknown is whether either suspect knew either victim.

    Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.

    Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

    "The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.

    According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.

    Cosby, 32, was sitting with a woman in a car in the 1700 block of Edwards Avenue about 2:30 a.m. last Saturday, when Smith walked up and tried to rob them, according to court documents. The woman hurried out of the car and heard gunshots as she ran. Police found Cosby dead in the vehicle.

    Smith faces 17 charges, including two counts of murder in the deaths of Tyler and Cosby, along with robbery of Tyler and two counts of attempted robbery in the Edwards Avenue slaying. Hamiel faces eight charges, including murder and robbery of Tyler.

    Preliminary hearings for both teens are set for Jan. 30.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Lightbulb What can we learn from these sensless acts.

    .1 The victim is NOT at fault ever. It is always the criminal's fault period!

    .2 I know it is easy to assume a pair of 16 yr. olds are not a threat, this is a false assumption.

    .3 It is important to train for this type of event and use the best equipment if at all possible. IE.. retention techniques and retention holsters.

    .4 Many of us carry a backup weapon, the article is too vague to know if the OCer had a second pistol or not. I can say this, a backup pistol is an essential piece of gear and we should all consider carrying one, if we do not already do so.

    Please remember this was one isolated incident that the details of which are still in question. The opponents of civil rights (2A included) will no doubt spin this tragedy to fit their agenda. My heart goes out to the victims and their families. I personally think that it is far better to carry a pistol(s) than to count on the mercy of thugs.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 12-07-2011 at 03:31 AM. Reason: grammar
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Retention holster, Anyone?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    .1 The victim is NOT at fault ever. It is always the criminal's fault period!

    .2 I know it is easy to assume a pair of 16 yr. olds are not a threat, this is a false assumption.

    .3 It is important to train for this type of event and use the best equipment if at all possible. IE.. retention techniques and retention holsters.

    .4 Many of us carry a backup weapon, the article is too vague to know if the OCer had a second pistol or not. I can say this, a backup pistol is an essential piece of gear and we should all consider carrying one, if we do not already do so.

    Please remember this was one isolated incident that the details of which are still in question. The opponents of civil rights (2A included) will no doubt spin this tragedy to fit their agenda. My heart goes out to the victims and their families. I personally think that it is far better to carry a pistol(s) than to count on the mercy of thugs.
    Thanks for pointing this out. Our detractors, and possibly some of us may forget under the circumstances.

    As far as a 16 year old threat goes, I personally watch them closer than anyone else. Many of them lack judgement, fear and consequence. These come with experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Retention holster, Anyone?
    Thats what I was thinking.


    Still, as has been pointed out before, hundreds of people OC daily in 40 some odd states, some have been able to OC for years. That translates into hundreds of thousands of man-hours of OC. The odds of being in a gun grab as the result of OC are still like one in a trillion.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 12-07-2011 at 12:27 PM.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post

    ...Our detractors, and possibly some of us may forget under the circumstances.

    As far as a 16 year old threat goes, I personally watch them closer than anyone else. Many of them lack judgement, fear and consequence. These come with experience...

    ...Still, as has been pointed out before, hundreds of people OC daily in 40 some odd states, some have been able to OC for years. That translates into hundreds of thousands of man-hours of OC. The odds of being in a gun grab as the result of OC are still like one in a trillion.
    Great points.

    Also, I'd just tag onto your last comment and point out that out of all the people across our nation who OC and CC, the probability that any of us will ever be attacked and have to draw our weapon to defend ourselves is probably one in a trillion too. But we must remain armed and vigilant in the event that day ever presents itself.
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    This is so similar to the silly question, "Why do you carry a gun, nothings going to happen?".

    People play against worse odds in the lottery every day. Difference is, if you lose that bet, you lose a dollar, lose this one, and you're dead...

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I'd say your chances of being attacked is greater than 1 to 1,000,000,000,000 but I'd bet a concealed carrier is far more likely than an OCers to need to use their gun in SD.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Ahh, the part that had me was that he chased them inside the station after they took his gun, I think I might have sought out cover but again, without knowing all the facts. Also as my wife has pointed out about retention holsters, we're not the only ones who know how they work, and just because it's retention doesn't mean someone close enough, with knowledge of how they work can't get your weapon. Obviously using a retention holster is a best practice, along with not letting someone get close enough to grab your sidearm. A back up would also be advised. I agree though, the victim is never at fault.

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    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarmy9 View Post
    Ahh, the part that had me was that he chased them inside the station after they took his gun, I think I might have sought out cover but again, without knowing all the facts. Also as my wife has pointed out about retention holsters, we're not the only ones who know how they work, and just because it's retention doesn't mean someone close enough, with knowledge of how they work can't get your weapon. Obviously using a retention holster is a best practice, along with not letting someone get close enough to grab your sidearm. A back up would also be advised. I agree though, the victim is never at fault.


    Anything is possible, but I highly doubt 15-16 year old punks know how retention holsters work. More likely the guy was improperly OCing. WHo knows though. I know that even though I have not taken any formal retention classes, I always cover the grip of my gun while I"m OCing... I stick my hand in my pocket so my arm goes across the grip and it also makes a great arm rest for my elbow. Haven't OC'd for a while though.... sadly.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    1. The MSP train the "arm rest" retention method, I use it too.
    2. It's called the Virginia Tuck for a reason.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    1. The MSP train the "arm rest" retention method, I use it too.
    2. It's called the Virginia Tuck for a reason.

    Yep I train the same method for when I am out and on my own...
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Quote Originally Posted by xarmy9 View Post
    Ahh, the part that had me was that he chased them inside the station after they took his gun, I think I might have sought out cover but again, without knowing all the facts. Also as my wife has pointed out about retention holsters, we're not the only ones who know how they work, and just because it's retention doesn't mean someone close enough, with knowledge of how they work can't get your weapon. Obviously using a retention holster is a best practice, along with not letting someone get close enough to grab your sidearm. A back up would also be advised. I agree though, the victim is never at fault.
    I rather OC with a retention holster than not. Even if they know how to use that style of holster it may buy you a second or two to react to the grab.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    1. The MSP train the "arm rest" retention method, I use it too.
    2. It's called the Virginia Tuck for a reason.
    What did I miss? What does a Virginia tuck have to do with this thread?
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    i carry a bug, but the ? of the hour is willi reach for the bug or try to fend off an attacker when there reaching for my gun i o/c with.. its very hard to say what we will do on less its happening to us.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Heard a story about an LEO who was searching someone and found a gun in their waistband. I believe the officer was by himself. When the officer tried to take the gun away from the guy a struggle ensured. The criminal with his offhand grabbed another gun he had on him and shot the officer. I believe it you do carry a BUG it would be most beneficial for you to carry it in a position where you can grab it with your offhand.

    This is a video from a LEO on youtube named "brotherkeepers111".

    http://www.youtube.com/user/brothers.../3/Vs5JTbu3xbA Start at about 1:40
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Heard a story about an LEO who was searching someone and found a gun in their waistband. I believe the officer was by himself. When the officer tried to take the gun away from the guy a struggle ensured. The criminal with his offhand grabbed another gun he had on him and shot the officer. I believe it you do carry a BUG it would be most beneficial for you to carry it in a position where you can grab it with your offhand.

    This is a video from a LEO on youtube named "brotherkeepers111".

    http://www.youtube.com/user/brothers.../3/Vs5JTbu3xbA Start at about 1:40
    great video. i will carry my bug on my weak side. right now i carry it tucked undermy shirt were my back is..

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    Quote Originally Posted by xarmy9 View Post
    Ahh, the part that had me was that he chased them inside the station after they took his gun, I think I might have sought out cover but again, without knowing all the facts. Also as my wife has pointed out about retention holsters, we're not the only ones who know how they work, and just because it's retention doesn't mean someone close enough, with knowledge of how they work can't get your weapon. Obviously using a retention holster is a best practice, along with not letting someone get close enough to grab your sidearm. A back up would also be advised. I agree though, the victim is never at fault.
    It is difficult for person B to remove a pistol from a retention holster worn on person A's belt, even if they know the trick to release the pistol. We've done some drills using my glock and a *gasp* serpa retention holster. Because the firearm has to be pulled straight up, it is nearly impossible for a person to walk up from behind, reach under your arm, and remove the pistol without a big struggle.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    It is difficult for person B to remove a pistol from a retention holster worn on person A's belt, even if they know the trick to release the pistol. We've done some drills using my glock and a *gasp* serpa retention holster. Because the firearm has to be pulled straight up, it is nearly impossible for a person to walk up from behind, reach under your arm, and remove the pistol without a big struggle.
    Quite right.

    I've got an ITAC and there's no way to remove it unless the release button is depressed and the handgun is pulled straight up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    As far as a 16 year old threat goes, I personally watch them closer than anyone else. Many of them lack judgement, fear and consequence. These come with experience.
    +1

    I OC my BUG in a manner where it could be drawn quicky with my offhand. I figure if I find myself having to reach for my secondary handgun then something has gone terribly wrong and I need access to it just as quickly as my primary - if not quicker. What's more, it is my belief that the sight of an OCed BUG will serve as a deterent for a gun grab, unless the criminal brings their own gun to the party.

    I suspect the OCer in the aforementioned story was using an open-top holster with friction as his only method of retention.
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

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  24. #24
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    ...like an IWB. The story was in Virginia and it is called the Virginia tuck.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  25. #25
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    ...like an IWB. The story was in Virginia and it is called the Virginia tuck.
    I didn't put it together that this took place in Virginia... but I see what you mean now... it's likely he was carrying IWB with an IWB holster but was OCing....

    Not smart IMHO.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

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