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Open carrier killed with his own gun

MilProGuy

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Joined
Jul 7, 2011
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1,210
Location
Mississippi
This is tragic, but it should be a lesson to us all that we cannot let up on our own personal "situational awareness" when we are outside the sanctity of our homes.
 

xarmy9

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Messages
21
Location
Grand Rapids area, Michigan
I'm a little confused, did he chase them in to the station? If so, he was wrong. It's hard to say what he could have done differently without knowing all the details. It's definitely tragic.
 

SpringerXDacp

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May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
I'm a little confused, did he chase them in to the station? If so, he was wrong. It's hard to say what he could have done differently without knowing all the details. It's definitely tragic.

If I understood the article correctly, according to the court papers, the chase (Tyler chasing Smith) occurred inside after Smith and Hamiel followed Tyler inside the building. Tyler was chasing Smith inside the store because Smith took Tyler's holstered gun during the struggle.

ETA: Existing Thread in the Virginia subforum

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?97441-CHP-Self-Defense-apparently-failed-Richmonder
 
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Glock9mmOldStyle

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Apr 21, 2010
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Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
By: Reed Williams
Published: December 03, 2011
Updated: December 03, 2011 - 11:05 PM
» 13 Comments | Post a Comment

The 16-year-old accused of killing two people in less than seven hours last week in Richmond has several felony convictions, including one for a violent crime.

Toby Smith Jr. is accused of stealing Blaine Tyler's gun inside a gas station last week and fatally shooting him after Tyler chased Smith inside the store.

The Richmond teenager also is accused of fatally shooting Pierre Walter "Pete" Cosby hours later in an attempted robbery in the Oak Grove neighborhood in South Richmond.

Smith, who was arrested Monday and charged in last week's two killings, was convicted in 2010 of malicious wounding, grand larceny and burglary, according to court papers filed in Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court.

Tyee Marquel Hamiel, another 16-year-old Richmonder, also faces charges in Tyler's killing but not in Cosby's. Hamiel's criminal history includes convictions in 2007 of grand larceny and malicious wounding, according to court records.

Smith and Hamiel also were convicted of attempted grand larceny on the same day in August of this year, the records show.

"This isn't the first time that they've been in trouble together," said Richmond Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Andy Johnson.

Johnson declined to discuss the specifics of the suspects' prior cases because they involve juvenile records, including what sentences they received.

The court records were filed this week as part of the discovery process for the current cases against Smith and Hamiel. The documents do not list sentencing information or details about the crimes.

Judge Marilynn C. Goss of Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court denied a motion by a Richmond Times-Dispatch reporter to view portions of the case files for the previous convictions. She ruled that the prior hearings were closed and that the information on the cases, including any sentences handed down, would remain confidential.

Johnson, speaking generally about juvenile cases, said it is rare in Richmond for a juvenile to be sent to detention after his or her case is adjudicated.

"Our goal is to try to get through to these kids before they become adults so we don't automatically lock them up every time they do something wrong," he said.

However, in the cases now pending against Smith and Hamiel, prosecutors will try to have the teens tried as adults and, if the suspects are convicted of murder charges, they could face up to life in adult prison.

Smith's attorney, Robert D. Shrader Jr., and Hamiel's attorney, John G. Lafratta, declined to discuss the cases against their clients.

No one answered the door Friday at the home of Smith's mother in the 300 block of East 11th Street in the Blackwell neighborhood in South Richmond. Court papers list that address as the home of Smith but also give another address for him.

A woman who answered the door Friday at Hamiel's mother's home at the Midlothian Village Apartments in South Richmond said she would have no comment. No one came to the door at the home Hamiel shared with a sister in the 2400 block of Atwell Lane near Jefferson Davis Highway and Bellemeade Road.

Authorities say last week's homicides both involved a robbery or attempted robberies, but it was unclear why or how each victim was selected. Also unknown is whether either suspect knew either victim.

Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.

Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.

According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.

Cosby, 32, was sitting with a woman in a car in the 1700 block of Edwards Avenue about 2:30 a.m. last Saturday, when Smith walked up and tried to rob them, according to court documents. The woman hurried out of the car and heard gunshots as she ran. Police found Cosby dead in the vehicle.

Smith faces 17 charges, including two counts of murder in the deaths of Tyler and Cosby, along with robbery of Tyler and two counts of attempted robbery in the Edwards Avenue slaying. Hamiel faces eight charges, including murder and robbery of Tyler.

Preliminary hearings for both teens are set for Jan. 30.
 

Glock9mmOldStyle

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Apr 21, 2010
Messages
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Location
Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
What can we learn from these sensless acts.

.1 The victim is NOT at fault ever. It is always the criminal's fault period!

.2 I know it is easy to assume a pair of 16 yr. olds are not a threat, this is a false assumption.

.3 It is important to train for this type of event and use the best equipment if at all possible. IE.. retention techniques and retention holsters.

.4 Many of us carry a backup weapon, the article is too vague to know if the OCer had a second pistol or not. I can say this, a backup pistol is an essential piece of gear and we should all consider carrying one, if we do not already do so.

Please remember this was one isolated incident that the details of which are still in question. The opponents of civil rights (2A included) will no doubt spin this tragedy to fit their agenda. My heart goes out to the victims and their families. I personally think that it is far better to carry a pistol(s) than to count on the mercy of thugs.
 
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stainless1911

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Dec 19, 2009
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Davisburg, Michigan, United States
.1 The victim is NOT at fault ever. It is always the criminal's fault period!

.2 I know it is easy to assume a pair of 16 yr. olds are not a threat, this is a false assumption.

.3 It is important to train for this type of event and use the best equipment if at all possible. IE.. retention techniques and retention holsters.

.4 Many of us carry a backup weapon, the article is too vague to know if the OCer had a second pistol or not. I can say this, a backup pistol is an essential piece of gear and we should all consider carrying one, if we do not already do so.

Please remember this was one isolated incident that the details of which are still in question. The opponents of civil rights (2A included) will no doubt spin this tragedy to fit their agenda. My heart goes out to the victims and their families. I personally think that it is far better to carry a pistol(s) than to count on the mercy of thugs.

Thanks for pointing this out. Our detractors, and possibly some of us may forget under the circumstances.

As far as a 16 year old threat goes, I personally watch them closer than anyone else. Many of them lack judgement, fear and consequence. These come with experience.

Retention holster, Anyone?

Thats what I was thinking.


Still, as has been pointed out before, hundreds of people OC daily in 40 some odd states, some have been able to OC for years. That translates into hundreds of thousands of man-hours of OC. The odds of being in a gun grab as the result of OC are still like one in a trillion.
 
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MilProGuy

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Jul 7, 2011
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Mississippi
...Our detractors, and possibly some of us may forget under the circumstances.

As far as a 16 year old threat goes, I personally watch them closer than anyone else. Many of them lack judgement, fear and consequence. These come with experience...

...Still, as has been pointed out before, hundreds of people OC daily in 40 some odd states, some have been able to OC for years. That translates into hundreds of thousands of man-hours of OC. The odds of being in a gun grab as the result of OC are still like one in a trillion.

Great points.

Also, I'd just tag onto your last comment and point out that out of all the people across our nation who OC and CC, the probability that any of us will ever be attacked and have to draw our weapon to defend ourselves is probably one in a trillion too. But we must remain armed and vigilant in the event that day ever presents itself.
 

stainless1911

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This is so similar to the silly question, "Why do you carry a gun, nothings going to happen?".

People play against worse odds in the lottery every day. Difference is, if you lose that bet, you lose a dollar, lose this one, and you're dead...
 

xmanhockey7

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Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
I'd say your chances of being attacked is greater than 1 to 1,000,000,000,000 but I'd bet a concealed carrier is far more likely than an OCers to need to use their gun in SD.
 

xarmy9

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Jul 30, 2011
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Location
Grand Rapids area, Michigan
Ahh, the part that had me was that he chased them inside the station after they took his gun, I think I might have sought out cover but again, without knowing all the facts. Also as my wife has pointed out about retention holsters, we're not the only ones who know how they work, and just because it's retention doesn't mean someone close enough, with knowledge of how they work can't get your weapon. Obviously using a retention holster is a best practice, along with not letting someone get close enough to grab your sidearm. A back up would also be advised. I agree though, the victim is never at fault.
 

HKcarrier

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michigan
Ahh, the part that had me was that he chased them inside the station after they took his gun, I think I might have sought out cover but again, without knowing all the facts. Also as my wife has pointed out about retention holsters, we're not the only ones who know how they work, and just because it's retention doesn't mean someone close enough, with knowledge of how they work can't get your weapon. Obviously using a retention holster is a best practice, along with not letting someone get close enough to grab your sidearm. A back up would also be advised. I agree though, the victim is never at fault.



Anything is possible, but I highly doubt 15-16 year old punks know how retention holsters work. More likely the guy was improperly OCing. WHo knows though. I know that even though I have not taken any formal retention classes, I always cover the grip of my gun while I"m OCing... I stick my hand in my pocket so my arm goes across the grip and it also makes a great arm rest for my elbow. :) Haven't OC'd for a while though.... sadly.
 

TheQ

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Aug 2, 2010
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Lansing, Michigan
1. The MSP train the "arm rest" retention method, I use it too.
2. It's called the Virginia Tuck for a reason.
 

Venator

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Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
Ahh, the part that had me was that he chased them inside the station after they took his gun, I think I might have sought out cover but again, without knowing all the facts. Also as my wife has pointed out about retention holsters, we're not the only ones who know how they work, and just because it's retention doesn't mean someone close enough, with knowledge of how they work can't get your weapon. Obviously using a retention holster is a best practice, along with not letting someone get close enough to grab your sidearm. A back up would also be advised. I agree though, the victim is never at fault.

I rather OC with a retention holster than not. Even if they know how to use that style of holster it may buy you a second or two to react to the grab.
 

rvd4now

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Aug 14, 2011
Messages
239
Location
down river
i carry a bug, but the ? of the hour is willi reach for the bug or try to fend off an attacker when there reaching for my gun i o/c with.. its very hard to say what we will do on less its happening to us.
 

xmanhockey7

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Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
Heard a story about an LEO who was searching someone and found a gun in their waistband. I believe the officer was by himself. When the officer tried to take the gun away from the guy a struggle ensured. The criminal with his offhand grabbed another gun he had on him and shot the officer. I believe it you do carry a BUG it would be most beneficial for you to carry it in a position where you can grab it with your offhand.

This is a video from a LEO on youtube named "brotherkeepers111".

http://www.youtube.com/user/brotherskeepers111?feature=g-user#p/u/3/Vs5JTbu3xbA Start at about 1:40
 

rvd4now

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
239
Location
down river
Heard a story about an LEO who was searching someone and found a gun in their waistband. I believe the officer was by himself. When the officer tried to take the gun away from the guy a struggle ensured. The criminal with his offhand grabbed another gun he had on him and shot the officer. I believe it you do carry a BUG it would be most beneficial for you to carry it in a position where you can grab it with your offhand.

This is a video from a LEO on youtube named "brotherkeepers111".

http://www.youtube.com/user/brotherskeepers111?feature=g-user#p/u/3/Vs5JTbu3xbA Start at about 1:40

great video. i will carry my bug on my weak side. right now i carry it tucked undermy shirt were my back is..
 
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