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Thread: Clerk Firearm Possesion in Establishment that Sells Alcohol

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    Clerk Firearm Possesion in Establishment that Sells Alcohol

    I stopped by my local convienence store and someone how started talking with the lady cashier about recent robberies and the conversation turned towards firearms. She said she wished she could carry at work. I asked her why she couldn't and she said that a LEO told them they could not carry a firearm in an establishment that sold alcohol even if it wasn't consumed on premises. I told her I wasn't 100% sure but that it didn't sound right to me. I mentioned you can open or cc in any establishment that sells alcohol as long as it is not consumed on premises. Told her that personally I wouldn't take legal advice from a LEO. Also told her I would research the issue and let her know. As far as I know, it's legal to carry at work even if they sell alcohol as long as it's okay with the owner. Can anyone verify? I did a quick search and didn't find anything stating it was prohibited.

    Thanks!

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    Regular Member smlawrence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiderjohn View Post
    I stopped by my local convienence store and someone how started talking with the lady cashier about recent robberies and the conversation turned towards firearms. She said she wished she could carry at work. I asked her why she couldn't and she said that a LEO told them they could not carry a firearm in an establishment that sold alcohol even if it wasn't consumed on premises. I told her I wasn't 100% sure but that it didn't sound right to me. I mentioned you can open or cc in any establishment that sells alcohol as long as it is not consumed on premises. Told her that personally I wouldn't take legal advice from a LEO. Also told her I would research the issue and let her know. As far as I know, it's legal to carry at work even if they sell alcohol as long as it's okay with the owner. Can anyone verify? I did a quick search and didn't find anything stating it was prohibited.

    Thanks!
    To my knowledge, you are correct.
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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    it may be...

    1. mgr is concerned arming their clerks, (some might not be the brightest crayons in the box), as their having/carrying firearms would be more dangerous than the robbers.

    2. could be specific company/corp policy their clerks are not to be armed based on above reasoning multiplied by how many are in the chain.

    liability issues me thinks is the crux...

    wabbit

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    1. mgr is concerned arming their clerks, (some might not be the brightest crayons in the box), as their having/carrying firearms would be more dangerous than the robbers.

    2. could be specific company/corp policy their clerks are not to be armed based on above reasoning multiplied by how many are in the chain.

    liability issues me thinks is the crux...

    wabbit
    yeah i agree but what I was addressing was the LEO telling them it was illegal.

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    Here is a link to the thread to covered this topic.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...g-on-the-clock
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    A store that sells alcohol for consumption OFF PREMISE is NOT covered under the NCGS § 14‑269.3.

    It is 100% legal to carry0-OC or CC in a retail store that sells alcohol for consumption off-premise, unless that business is posted.

    And even if it is Posted, the owner can carry there, and he can authorize his employees to carry as well.

    And with regards to establishments that ARE covered under § 14‑269.3, the owner of such an establishment can carry there, and he can authorize his employees to carry as well, as is plainly stated in § 14‑269.3 (b) (2) and (3)
    .

    But a convenience store or grocery store that sells beer and wine--heck yeah it's legal to carry there. I do it all the time--WalMart, the local gas stations, Sheetz, Food Lion, Whole Foods, etc.

    Any LEO that tells someone that carry in such an establishment is illegal needs to be reported IMMEDIATELY to his supervisor for giving out false/incorrect information, so that he can be quickly and thoroughly re-educated. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for us--it DEFINITELY shouldn't be for an LEO, and they DEFINITELY should be held accountable when DON'T KNOW THE LAW, and they pull stuff out of their ass like this...

    As for the "business liability" argument that is 100 bogus. NC has a strong Castle doctrine and "Stand Your Ground" laws, and we also protect against criminal AND civil liability in a justified defensive shooting. If every little dusty, scruffy independently-owned PAWN SHOP in the state can let their entire staff carry on the job, then the idea that major chain stores can't afford the insurance to cover such a non-existent liability is absurd to the point of being an insult to any intelligent human being.

    A business owner who uses the "liability" excuse to deny his employees their RKBA--ESPECIALLY if they have training and some sort of certifications--is not someone I would want to work for because

    1) he has EXPLICITLY stated that he values his profits more than my life, and
    2) he is lying, and I won't work for a liar...

    Tell your friend that the cop they talked to is either ignorant of the law or a liar.

    And tell them that if they get their boss's permission to carry (OC or CC) it is 100 percent legal even if they do sell alcohol.

    Carry on.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I can sort of understand the owner of a business not wanting his employees to carry firearms. It's not the same as an individual citizen carrying for SD in the gravest extreme. Now you possibly have the employees using the firearm to protect merchandise. In addition, they're in a risky spot, having to deal with all kinds of strangers and man a cash register full of money.

    To me, the best way to protect your business is to hire an off-duty cop, have layers of security (like some jewelry stores have), and cameras, alarms, etc. In fact maybe even having a dog. IDK. Just musing here.

    But the fact is, an employee should be allowed to defend themselves even if they're on the owner's property and he's paying their salary. First, though, the owner should make the workplace as safe as he can (see above).

    $.02
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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    sorry missed your point

    spider: sorry missed the concept you were exploiting the advice by the law enforcement officer was wrong...

    dreamer, you have a convience business' just getting by w/about a <5% return on investment, and as the owner you now have to ensure john/jane q employee are appropriately trained in firearm safety and purchase viable firearms and equipment for john/jane just so your liability insurance isn't through the roof so you can maintain some semblance of your <5% ROI.

    finally, you hope the 8$/hour john/jane employee w/barely a hs education understands the firearm is for their own protection in a life/death situation and not to prevent a money robbery or merchandise theft from the store(or to chase BGs out of the store and down the street).

    Badger's thought of ensuring the store is 'safe' up to and including hiring a third party security (no off duty - sorry) to keep the premise safe for employees and it lowers your liability insurance and is deductable off the top of your business' taxes thus possibly improving the ROI a bit.

    wabbit

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    NC ABC stores are government regulated if not owned it appears.

    http://pitt.ncabc.com/boardContent.aspx?pid=126

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by American Patriot View Post
    NC ABC stores are government regulated if not owned it appears.

    http://pitt.ncabc.com/boardContent.aspx?pid=126
    Some ABC stores in NC are posted, some are not. Only the ones that are posted prohibit carry, because there is no specific prohibition on carry there in NC Statute. At least that is MY take on it. YMMV.

    And besides, ABC stores in NC are PRIVATE BUSINESSES that are "regulated" by the NC Department of Commerce, and they have a special law-enforcement branch dedicated specifically to policing them--the ALE. ABC stores in NC are no more "government owned" than banks, and are therefore bound by the same rules and have the same rights with regards to carry policy as any other private businesses.

    We were talking more about places that sell beer and wine like grocery and convenience stores in this thread, and not really addressing ABC stores, but you bring up a vaild point that MOST people (including LEOs and many ALE agents) don't fully understand.

    Good catch, "Patriot". Thanks for bringing that one up.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 12-08-2011 at 07:46 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/northcarolina.pdf

    Places Off-Limits Even With A Permit/License
     Schools, public or private, all levels including universities. A curricular or extracurricular activity sponsored by a school. This also applies to all property owned by any school. §14-269.2
     Assemblies and establishments where admission was charged. §14-269.3
     Assemblies and establishments where alcohol is both sold and consumed. §14-269.3
     State Capitol Building, the Executive Mansion, the Western Residence of the Governor, or on the grounds of any of these buildings, and any building housing any court of the General Court of Justice. §14-269.4 (Parking lot storage allowed by Permit/License Holders)
     State office buildings or any portion of a building in which there’re State offices. §14-415.11(c)
     Law Enforcement or Correctional Facilities. §14-415.11(c)
     Events Occurring in Public: It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any private health care facility or upon any public place owned or under the control of the State or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. §14-277.2
     Areas of emergencies or riots. §14-288.7
     On any private premises where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises. §14-415.11(c)

    Emphasis mine.

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    I worked at a gas station in Greenville during college. It was a "Pantry" franchise so of course their corp. policy restricted employees from carrying.

    I also carried my pistol every single day that I worked. Concealed of course. And that was a full size Beretta 92, IWB.

    On my last day of work I shared that fact with my coworkers. Knowing me by this point, they all were a bit surprised but also thankful for the protection.
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

    I don't bother with pragmatic statistics while discussing my constitutional rights. The issue is far less complex, to me. Free men should be able to act like free men.

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    Regular Member ArmySoldier22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith45acp View Post
    I worked at a gas station in Greenville during college. It was a "Pantry" franchise so of course their corp. policy restricted employees from carrying.

    I also carried my pistol every single day that I worked. Concealed of course. And that was a full size Beretta 92, IWB.

    On my last day of work I shared that fact with my coworkers. Knowing me by this point, they all were a bit surprised but also thankful for the protection.
    I would've done the same thing working in a gas station. Especially in Greenville.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by American Patriot View Post
     Events Occurring in Public: It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any private health care facility or upon any public place owned or under the control of the State or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. §14-277.2

    You almost had me with that one...

    The phrase you bolded is a "qualifier" for the FIRST phrase in this statute that I also have highlighted above.

    Those places are ONLY prohibited if a person is affiliated with parade, demonstration, etc.

    At any other time, such places may actually be legal for carry, unless posted, or otherwise prohibited by statute, code,or ordinance.

    §14-277.2 causes more problems for people trying to interpret NC firearms law than any other single statute. It is poorly worded, shoddily constructed, and it is a painfully long and complex run-on sentence with WAY to many qualifiers.

    And it is just a stupid law, and arguably unconstitutional.

    NCGS §14-277.2 should be repealed...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 12-09-2011 at 10:58 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySoldier22 View Post
    I would've done the same thing working in a gas station. Especially in Greenville.
    I worked as a Night Auditor at a discount hotel in Washington for a year. I got the owner's permission to CC. I had a ParaOrdnance P-14.45 with 2 extra mags with me at all times, and luckily never needed it. I did, however, find myself in the situation where I had to present ID and my CHP to local LEOs, when they responded to "situations" called in by either myself or one of the guests, including "shots fired" reports on several occasions, an attempted suicide, a rape/robbery, and a brutal mugging in the parking lot.

    Never had so much as a second look, let alone an attempt (or even a request) to disarm me.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    i wondered about this as well and the only response i got: quote this statute might have been enacted because of memories from the 79 greensboro shooting (some call it a massacre)? unquote.

    after hearing this i did some digging to review of the 'history' of the shooting and subsequent aftermath... i can see why there could be some folk still a little sensitive about the whole situation which could have resulted in this portion of the statute.

    wabbit
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 12-10-2011 at 12:54 PM.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    i wondered about this as well and the only response i got: quote this statute might have been enacted because of memories from the 79 greensboro shooting (some call it a massacre)? unquote.

    after hearing this i did some digging to review of the 'history' of the shooting and subsequent aftermath... i can see why there could be some folk still a little sensitive about the whole situation which could have resulted in this portion of the statute.

    wabbit

    So let's get this straight...

    The Greensboro Police GAVE the Klan the protester's parade route and itinerary.

    A BATFE infiltrator with the Nazi's encouraged them to bring guns to the rally (making him, BY DEFINITION and agent provocateur, the the entire operation potentially a False Flag op DESIGNED to cause a violent racial incident perpetrated by the government).

    When a bunch of local black protestors (who were probably ALSO infiltrated by government agents, provocateuring them to violent action, as is the case in nearly 100% of historical race riots in the US) attacked their cars with bricks, rocks and stones, the Klansmen and Nazi's opened fire in self defense.

    And so now, every law-abiding citizen in NC is prohibited from carrying if they are anywhere near a parade, protest, or other such event....

    Yeah, that makes PERFECT sense, "wabbit"...

    The "Greensboro Massacre" incident does not pass the "sniff test" for being a purely local, random violent incident. It appears, to any student of 20th century American History, to be a CLASSIC example of government Agent Provocateurs working both sides, to facilitate a classical Hegelian Dialectic--Create a Problem (cause a race riot), Lead the Public to a Reaction (demand gun control laws), and then provide a "solution" (enact gun control laws that would NOT have prevented the original incident in the first place, and ONLY serve to restrict and punish law-abiding citizens).

    I don't buy the "official story" for a minute, and I STILL thing the "funerals, protests and parades" prohibition in NC is ridiculous, morally offensive, and unconstitutional.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 12-10-2011 at 08:34 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    just one point about the Greensboro incident, Dreamer, i was there the next week in green. you are right about the gov. meddling. i have always thought that was why there was no convictions. the opposing group was the communist works party, there was a blend of black and whites in the group. still a stupid law

    this OP reminds me of so called "gun people" that absolutely know that ______ is illegal (legal) when they have no clue what the law is. that is one good thing about this site requiring a cite
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    So let's get this straight...

    The Greensboro Police GAVE the Klan the protester's parade route and itinerary.

    A BATFE infiltrator with the Nazi's encouraged them to bring guns to the rally (making him, BY DEFINITION and agent provocateur, the the entire operation potentially a False Flag op DESIGNED to cause a violent racial incident perpetrated by the government).

    When a bunch of local black protestors (who were probably ALSO infiltrated by government agents, provocateuring them to violent action, as is the case in nearly 100% of historical race riots in the US) attacked their cars with bricks, rocks and stones, the Klansmen and Nazi's opened fire in self defense.

    And so now, every law-abiding citizen in NC is prohibited from carrying if they are anywhere near a parade, protest, or other such event....

    Yeah, that makes PERFECT sense, "wabbit"...

    The "Greensboro Massacre" incident does not pass the "sniff test" for being a purely local, random violent incident. It appears, to any student of 20th century American History, to be a CLASSIC example of government Agent Provocateurs working both sides, to facilitate a classical Hegelian Dialectic--Create a Problem (cause a race riot), Lead the Public to a Reaction (demand gun control laws), and then provide a "solution" (enact gun control laws that would NOT have prevented the original incident in the first place, and ONLY serve to restrict and punish law-abiding citizens).

    I don't buy the "official story" for a minute, and I STILL thing the "funerals, protests and parades" prohibition in NC is ridiculous, morally offensive, and unconstitutional.
    You nailed most of the story from that day but either missed or weren't around to see the actual goings on that day. The folks from the klan had their story down pat before they ever got there "We were headed to a range for some target practice and were attacked". The press coverage TV crews told the rest with video coverage of the cars being assulted and stopped by the crowd and the inhabitants of the cars (klans and FBI/ATF guys ) getting out in the midst of an unrully angry mob, going to the back of the cars and opening the trunk to distribute weapons which they then used to full effect.
    Not one of the shooters was in possession of a firearm at the onset. They all armed themselves in front of the TV cameras from the trunk of the cars. The firearms were carried in what was and still is a legal fashion if you leave out the pretty much undisputed fact that the shooters accomplished what they went to the place to do. This intent was afar as I know was never even attempted to be put forward by the state and not much denied or otherwise acknowledged by the Klan. When I recall that event and the facts that came to light later a single phrase comes to mind from an old Clint Eastwood movie. "cluster f--k" BTW as far as I know the designation of "race riot" doesn't apply in this case either. Yes it was in a black neighborhood and yes the march was mostly supported by black citizens of Greensboro but the agitators who were whipping up the crowd were mostly white and from Chapel Hill and communist rabble rousers and surpise, surprise they accounted for most of the wounded and dead. The other half of the frackus of course were Klansmen from outside Greensboro as well and as I'm sure comes as no surprise to anyone were all white folks too.
    Last edited by buzzsaw; 12-10-2011 at 10:58 PM.

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    ya, seems there is still a little sensitivity about the incident even after 30+ years...

    as for the 'what if' or 'who did what' or etc., i am afraid this incident's details are forever filed in the same place(s) as what happened to jimmy hoffa and where is his final resting place to who truly ordered kennedy's death and other such incidents which ppl will talk about until the next incident manifests itself...

    wabbit

    ps: and thanks for sharing your personal rememberances as it provides a perspective not normally shared by the media.

    caveat: i must point out...no where did i advocate one way or the other on the legtimacy of the statute only provided a a suggestive background rationale why it might have been enacted...

    as for funerals statute, you might wish to review the emotions where the wonderful folk from Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan appear at the funerals of our military members across the US with signs bearing messages like “America is Doomed” and “God Hates ****.” (i know this statute is the main reason these good church folk have not suffered at the hands of those grieving family members (tongue in cheek)). not to mention retalitory activities at gang member funerals. (wait...NC has gang member type organizations?)

    as to inciting the public just look at the recent incident at greenville...would like to see an investigation on the timeline of this event...interesting to note...the greenville residents do not see any type of problem with the response or that of the VT response...
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 12-11-2011 at 11:35 AM.

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