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Thread: HB 20: Emerg Serv & Disas Law; shall not be interpreted to prohibit carrying firearms

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    HB 20: Emerg Serv & Disas Law; shall not be interpreted to prohibit carrying firearms

    Delegate Wilt has submitted a bill on emergency services and carrying of firearms. The full text is not posted at this time, so we'll have to wait to see what it says.

    TFred

    Emergency Services & Disaster Law; shall not be interpreted to prohibit carrying, etc., of firearms

    Emergency services and disasters; constitutional rights. Provides that nothing in the Emergency Services and Disaster Law shall be interpreted to limit or prohibit the possession, carrying, transportation, sale, or transfer of firearms.

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    Works for me.

    If passed, I hope this will prevent what happened in NOLA after Katrina.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    If passed, I hope this will prevent what happened in NOLA after Katrina.

    Thought that was attended to several years ago. Can't remember where in the Code they stuck it, so am not citing it.

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    never mind....
    Last edited by roscoe13; 12-08-2011 at 10:27 AM. Reason: operator boneheadedness...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    If passed, I hope this will prevent what happened in NOLA after Katrina.
    You know what should have prevented what happened in NOLA after Katrina?

    Posse Comitatus.

    So much for that.
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Thanks to TFred for posting these.
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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    I'd really like to see one allowing carry at emergency shelters....

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    I'd really like to see one allowing carry at emergency shelters...
    Just remove any language which would prohibit the act.

    INCLUDING the school property prohibitions without intent.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    I'd like to see this allow carry in schools, which are often used as emergency shelters.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    You know what should have prevented what happened in NOLA after Katrina?

    Posse Comitatus.

    So much for that.
    Posse Comitatus only covers the use of the military in law enforcement in the U. S.
    It doesn't cover the National Guard (State-"owned" military) or
    Coast Guard (Dept. of Homeland Security & Federal Law Enforcement Agency).

    I know the CG was involved in the shameful siezure of firearms in NOLA. I believe the National Guard was also. They also had other LEAs from outside the area acting "as directed" by "local authority".
    I don't remember the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines being involved in the illegal theft of private firearms after Katrina.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Angry

    I always thought that Posse Comitatus covered ANYONE acting in a capacity of or under the umbrella of military service - essentially that NO MILITARY could be used as an extension or augmentation of LAW ENFORCEMENT.

    They simply don't have the training, nor the authority. Just because the governor activates the Guard in an emergency doesn't immediately deputize them. The governor doesn't have that authority either, I don't think.

    Regardless of the semantics, what happened in NOLA was shameful and they are just lucky most people laid down and did whatever they were told like good, obedient subjects. Come to my house like that and it ends very differently.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

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    Update on N.O. trial

    Here.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I always thought that Posse Comitatus covered ANYONE acting in a capacity of or under the umbrella of military service - essentially that NO MILITARY could be used as an extension or augmentation of LAW ENFORCEMENT.

    They simply don't have the training, nor the authority. Just because the governor activates the Guard in an emergency doesn't immediately deputize them. The governor doesn't have that authority either, I don't think.

    Regardless of the semantics, what happened in NOLA was shameful and they are just lucky most people laid down and did whatever they were told like good, obedient subjects. Come to my house like that and it ends very differently.
    Travis,
    Mike is 100% correct. The Guard CAN, WILL and HAS been used to augment Law Enforcement in Virginia. I did it myself when I was a Guard member.
    Craig
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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I always thought that Posse Comitatus covered ANYONE acting in a capacity of or under the umbrella of military service - essentially that NO MILITARY could be used as an extension or augmentation of LAW ENFORCEMENT.

    They simply don't have the training, nor the authority. Just because the governor activates the Guard in an emergency doesn't immediately deputize them. The governor doesn't have that authority either, I don't think.

    Regardless of the semantics, what happened in NOLA was shameful and they are just lucky most people laid down and did whatever they were told like good, obedient subjects. Come to my house like that and it ends very differently.
    Posse Comitatus only applies to Army and Air Force as a law.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Posse Comitatus only applies to Army and Air Force as a law.

    Yep...just Google "Kent State".
    They're often called on to do Crowd Control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    Posse Comitatus only covers the use of the military in law enforcement in the U. S.
    It doesn't cover the National Guard (State-"owned" military) or
    Coast Guard (Dept. of Homeland Security & Federal Law Enforcement Agency).
    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I always thought that Posse Comitatus covered ANYONE acting in a capacity of or under the umbrella of military service - essentially that NO MILITARY could be used as an extension or augmentation of LAW ENFORCEMENT.
    You are both partially correct.

    Posse Comitatus prohibits federal military personnel from being used for law enforcement purposes on US soil (excepting on military installations). It does apply to the National Guard, but only when they are called up for federal service (i.e. activated at the order of the President of the United States) and they are acting within the chain of command of the US Army. It does not apply when they are called up for state service under the Governor's orders (and thus under state command).

    Similarly, the Coast Guard has a dual role as both law enforcement and military. They are primarily considered a law enforcement agency when serving under the DHS and are exempt from the restrictions of Posse Comitatus (as it only explicitly identifies the Army and Air Force). However, during time of war, some or all of the Coast Guard can be transferred to be under the Department of the Navy. Any forces acting under Navy direction would be under the same restrictions as the Navy and Marine Corps (which, while not covered by the Posse Comitatus Act, are under a similar directive by regulation), unless otherwise specifically authorized for law enforcement purposes.
    Last edited by grylnsmn; 12-10-2011 at 07:33 AM. Reason: Fixing a minor factual error regarding the Coast Guard.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    I am glad to see this, and hope it goes through. I have begun (slowly) starting my SHTF plan, and just yesterday was speculating what would happen if a disaster happened and I had to go to a shelter. This brought me to the point of schools. We will see how it goes.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    You are both partially correct.



    Similarly, the Coast Guard has a dual role as both law enforcement and military. They are primarily considered a law enforcement agency when serving under the DHS and are exempt from the restrictions of Posse Comitatus (as it only explicitly identifies the Army and Air Force). However, during time of war, some or all of the Coast Guard can be transferred to be under the Department of the Navy. Any forces acting under Navy direction would be under the same restrictions as the Navy and Marine Corps (which, while not covered by the Posse Comitatus Act, are under a similar directive by regulation), unless otherwise specifically authorized for law enforcement purposes.
    grylnsmn:

    Thank you for correcting me on the missions I performed for over 22 years of my life. To my knowledge, the entire Coast Guard has never been placed under Navy control. Even during World War Two, there were Navy ships manned by Coasties, Landing Craft crewed by Coasties (The one and only Coast Guardsman to be awarded the Medal of Honor was a Landing Craft Coxswain) but the Coast Guard maintained its autonomy with the beach patrol and Coastial SAR missions.

    Some units have been placed in the Navy Chain of Command for periods of time. I was in a Port Security Unit (PSU) during Desert Storm. We were part of the Navy's Harbor Defense Command (HDC). Your Google-Fu obvioisly works, but you are incorrect in your mission priorities for the CG. Here are the missions of the Coast Guard listed in order of operating budget percentage:

    Missions
    By law, the Coast Guard has 11 missions:
    Ports, waterways, and coastal security
    Drug interdiction
    Aids to navigation
    Search and rescue
    Living marine resources
    Marine safety
    Defense readiness
    Migrant interdiction
    Marine environmental protection
    Ice operations
    Other law enforcement

    Thus, we are military, multi-mission, and maritime.

    There are currently several cutters (and boats) in Iraq performing "coastal security".
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    grylnsmn:

    Thank you for correcting me on the missions I performed for over 22 years of my life.
    Hold your horses! You seem to have missed the part where I was talking to both you and wylde007 when I said that you were both partially correct. I was essentially supporting your statement about the Coast Guard. However, I was correcting you with regards to the National Guard. My statements about the Coast Guard were primarily in response to wylde007.

    Your statement that the National Guard is not subject to Posse Comitatus is not completely accurate. They are subject to it when they are federalized, but not when they are called up by the governor, at least under current interpretations of the law. As one overview* of Posse Comitatus states:
    The Effect of the Posse Comitatus Act

    Before speculating on why this act is so misunderstood, it is useful to spell out exactly what the act as it is written does and does not do. The Posse Comitatus Act

    - Applies only to the Army, and by extension the Air Force, which was formed out of the Army in 1947.

    - Does not apply to the Navy and Marine Corps. However, the Department of Defense has consistently held that the Navy and Marine Corps should behave as if the act applied to them.

    - Does not apply to the Coast Guard, which is part of the Department of Transportation and is both an armed force and a law enforcement agency with police powers.

    - Does not apply to the National Guard in its role as state troops on state active duty under the command of the respective governors.

    - May not apply to the National Guard (qua militia) even when it is called to federal active duty. The Posse Comitatus Act contains no restrictions on the use of the federalized militia as it did on the regular Army. [9] It is commonly believed, however, that National Guard units and personnel come under the Posse Comitatus Act when they are on federal active duty, and this interpretation is followed today.

    - Does not apply to state guards or State Defense Forces under the command of the respective governors.


    - Does not apply to military personnel assigned to military police, shore police, or security police duties. The military police have jurisdiction over military members subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. They also exercise police powers over military dependents and others on military installations. The history of the law makes it clear that it was not intended to prevent federal police (for example, marshals) from enforcing the law.

    - Does not apply to civilian employees, including those who are sworn law enforcement officers. The origin and legislative history of the act make it clear that it applies only to military personnel. In those days, there were no civilian employees of the Army in the sense that there are today. In particular, no one envisioned that the Army would hire civilian police officers to enforce the laws at its facilities.

    - Does not prevent the President from using federal troops in riots or civil disorders. Federal troops were used for domestic operations more than 200 times in the two centuries from 1795 to 1995. Most of these operations were to enforce the law, and many of them were to enforce state law rather than federal law. [10] Nor does it prevent the military services from supporting local or federal law enforcement officials as long as the troops are not used to arrest citizens or investigate crimes.
    I hope that clarifies my previous post to your satisfaction.

    * For full disclosure, that article comes from the website of the Homeland Security Institute, or HSI. My father was employed by HSI from its founding in 2002 until 2005. However, he had no role in writing that article.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Delegate Wilt has submitted a bill on emergency services and carrying of firearms. The full text is not posted at this time, so we'll have to wait to see what it says.

    TFred

    Emergency Services & Disaster Law; shall not be interpreted to prohibit carrying, etc., of firearms

    Emergency services and disasters; constitutional rights. Provides that nothing in the Emergency Services and Disaster Law shall be interpreted to limit or prohibit the possession, carrying, transportation, sale, or transfer of firearms.
    Not sure why it took so long, most bills post the full text at the same time they put the link up... but I just noticed they finally got around to posting the full text of this bill.

    IANAL, but it appears to me that this is a useless bill. Perhaps even worse, because the name implies a protection, but the guts of the bill does not.

    Maybe someone with more legal smarts can verify this... upon plain text reading, I wouldn't support this bill with a 10 foot pole. In the text below, I simulate the "highlighted" version on LIS, but added the bold myself for emphasis.

    TFred

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...1+ful+HB20+hil

    Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:

    1. That § 44-146.15 of the Code of Virginia is amended and reenacted as follows:

    § 44-146.15. Construction of chapter.

    Nothing in this chapter is to be construed to:

    (1) Limit, modify, or abridge the authority of the Governor to exercise any powers vested in him under other laws of this Commonwealth independent of, or in conjunction with, any provisions of this chapter;

    (2) Interfere with dissemination of news or comment on public affairs; but any communications facility or organization, including, but not limited to, radio and television stations, wire services, and newspapers, may be required to transmit or print public service messages furnishing information or instructions in connection with actual or pending disaster;

    (3) Empower the Governor, any political subdivision, or any other governmental authority to in any way limit or prohibit the rights of the people to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by Article I, Section 13 of the Constitution of Virginia or the Second Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, including the otherwise lawful possession, carrying, transportation, sale, or transfer of firearms except to the extent necessary to ensure public safety in any place or facility designated or used by the Governor, any political subdivision of the Commonwealth, or any other governmental entity as an emergency shelter or for the purpose of sheltering persons;

    (4) Affect the jurisdiction or responsibilities of police forces, fire-fightingfirefighting forces, units of the armed forces of the United States or any personnel thereof, when on active duty; but state, local and interjurisdictional agencies for emergency services shall place reliance upon such forces in the event of declared disasters; or

    (5) Interfere with the course of conduct of a labor dispute except that actions otherwise authorized by this chapter or other laws may be taken when necessary to forestall or mitigate imminent or existing danger to public health or safety.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    I hope that clarifies my previous post to your satisfaction.
    Not exactly... this material is obviously dated before 9/11/01 (or shortly thereafter) when the Coast Guard was transferred from DOT to Homeland Security. They were one of the founding agencies of DHS.
    (Not something I'm proud of, BTW...)
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    Not exactly... this material is obviously dated before 9/11/01 (or shortly thereafter) when the Coast Guard was transferred from DOT to Homeland Security. They were one of the founding agencies of DHS.
    (Not something I'm proud of, BTW...)
    Again, the part I was correcting you regarded the National Guard. I was trying to support and agree with you regarding the Coast Guard.

    The National Guard is subject to Posse Comitatus when it is federalized, at least under current legal interpretations. The Coast Guard is not subject to Posse Comitatus, but can be made subject to the Navy's comparable regulatory directive for any personnel who might be transferred to be under Navy authority.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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