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Thread: pistol retention class - Milwaukee area

  1. #1
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Thumbs up pistol retention class - Milwaukee area

    Got an email early this morning from a well-known trainer in the MKE area: Tom Sipin.
    Some of our members have worked with him before & have high praise.
    I know there are people here who have been wanting to learn pistol retention, and here's a good chance.
    I'm copying directly from the email;
    I don't know anything more than this;
    there's a phone # & email below to get more info.


    Weapon Retention / Disarming
    Thursday, December 15th
    7:15 - 9:30 pm

    Location: Four Winds Martial Arts

    Equipment needed:
    Holster
    Training / plastic handgun (if you have one)
    Heavy work type gloves
    unloaded carry pistol, for initial warmups

    Cost:
    New Students $20 / person
    Previous Students $15 / person

    Due to several requests for this training before the holidays, registration will be accepted up to 1 day before the class.
    Please contact Sue @ 414-541-3656

    Four Winds Martial Arts
    2038 S 114th St.
    West Allis


    fwma@wi.rr.com
    www.fwma.net
    www.centurymartialarts.com

    For more information on who we are and what we do please visit:
    https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Ha...nds-Martial-Ar ts/157822464311177?sk=info
    Last edited by MKEgal; 12-09-2011 at 09:21 PM.
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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Interested, if I dont have a plastic gun does he provide one? I wonder why you need heavy gloves?
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member msteinhilber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    Interested, if I dont have a plastic gun does he provide one? I wonder why you need heavy gloves?
    I imagine there is going to be a lot of swift contact with the hands and they're using the gloves to lessen the impact while you're practicing disarming people. That's a pretty good price for the class, might have to consider getting over that way if I can.

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Good information!

    Thanks for the heads-up, MKEgal, this sounds like a very valuable course for a very reasonable cost!
    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    Interested, if I dont have a plastic gun does he provide one? I wonder why you need heavy gloves?

    You need the heavy gloves so when the training pistol gets ripped out of your hands it doesn't take your skin with it.

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    if one doesn't have a trainer pistol, would removing the magazine and firing pin be considered safe enough to use???

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio_vette View Post
    if one doesn't have a trainer pistol, would removing the magazine and firing pin be considered safe enough to use???
    If what happens in class is what I think happens you wont want your carry pistol being tossed around.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    If what happens in class is what I think happens you wont want your carry pistol being tossed around.
    not trying to argue. do have to wonder thought if i should trust a gun with my life if it can't handle a little abuse.


    alternative. would a airsoft pistol be an option??? at worst it would make a poof of air no more than me blowing at someone, and if broken i'm out $20. LOL

    just asking, as i'm possibly considering the class, and don't have a dummy, but when i train i like to train and best as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio_vette View Post
    if one doesn't have a trainer pistol, would removing the magazine and firing pin be considered safe enough to use???
    Real hand guns have lots of nice sharp edges and parts that could tear your hands up.

    Plus I would not want to teach a class with real guns to many things can go wrong.

    Their have been a fair number of training accidents with so caled unloaded or safe real guns.

  10. #10
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio_vette View Post
    not trying to argue. do have to wonder thought if i should trust a gun with my life if it can't handle a little abuse.

    alternative. would a airsoft pistol be an option??? at worst it would make a poof of air no more than me blowing at someone, and if broken i'm out $20. LOL

    just asking, as i'm possibly considering the class, and don't have a dummy, but when i train i like to train and best as possible.

    Not really worried about the gun, more so about the people in the class. You loose your grip and the piece flies accross the room and beans Ol'Lady Moses in the noggin will bring a quick end to the class. Rubber gun may leave a welt but usually wont draw blood.



    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Real hand guns have lots of nice sharp edges and parts that could tear your hands up.

    Plus I would not want to teach a class with real guns to many things can go wrong.

    Their have been a fair number of training accidents with so caled unloaded or safe real guns.

    Yep.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Real hand guns have lots of nice sharp edges and parts that could tear your hands up.

    Plus I would not want to teach a class with real guns to many things can go wrong.

    Their have been a fair number of training accidents with so caled unloaded or safe real guns.
    no accidents. only negligence.

    which is why i specifically said no magazine, and no firing pin. i guess that to me would make it safe. but you know what they say.......for every fool proof device, somebody breeds a better fool. so while i can't figure out what could go wrong (ok fine let me back up.....when removing the magazine, ALSO CHECK THE CHAMBER AND MAKE SURE IT'S EMPTY. LOL) with either of those missing, i can respect that decision.

    so what about a airsoft gun???

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    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio_vette View Post
    no accidents. only negligence.

    which is why i specifically said no magazine, and no firing pin. i guess that to me would make it safe. but you know what they say.......for every fool proof device, somebody breeds a better fool. so while i can't figure out what could go wrong (ok fine let me back up.....when removing the magazine, ALSO CHECK THE CHAMBER AND MAKE SURE IT'S EMPTY. LOL) with either of those missing, i can respect that decision.

    so what about a airsoft gun???
    If you buy the "Blue Pistol" trainer for your model of gun; you can use it in non-training times, to keep the shape of your leather holsters tip-top...
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Just talked with him on the phone...
    Answer: yes, he has extra plastic pistols

    ADD to the equipment list:
    bring your real pistol, but NO AMMO - he likes to have people do the warmups w/ real weight in the holster to let you see how well it retains the pistol. When we get to the actual handling, though, it'll all be plastic.

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    I've got a few of his videos, and really wish that I lived closer so I could partake of this training.

    JJC

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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio_vette View Post
    no accidents. only negligence.

    which is why i specifically said no magazine, and no firing pin. i guess that to me would make it safe. but you know what they say.......for every fool proof device, somebody breeds a better fool. so while i can't figure out what could go wrong (ok fine let me back up.....when removing the magazine, ALSO CHECK THE CHAMBER AND MAKE SURE IT'S EMPTY. LOL) with either of those missing, i can respect that decision.

    so what about a airsoft gun???

    Air soft guns are not tough enough they will break apart during the course. I have seen training guns break. Plus a plastic bb to the eye wouldn't be fun. air soft require min of eye protection.

    There are very good reasons to use plastic training guns instead of real guns.( cuts, gun shot wounds ect.)

    Ripping a gun out of some ones hands or retaining it is very dynamic.

    Having been involvled with this type of training for years when we didn't have training guns we sure wished we did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Plus a plastic bb to the eye wouldn't be fun. air soft require min of eye protection.
    see once again you assume there would be a magazine or anything in it.

    or

    maybe i keep making the mistake assuming that everybody "should" know how to be responsible. (not refering to you. but obviously "accidents/negligence" must happen enough to cause people to take such precautionary measures. plus the above mentioned points of metal to the head, etc..)

    i'm sorry......to much downtime lately. to much thinking time in the head. i'll quite cluttering this thread.

    i'll try to be there if i can.
    Last edited by scorpio_vette; 12-09-2011 at 10:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio_vette View Post
    see once again you assume there would be a magazine or anything in it.

    or

    maybe i keep making the mistake assuming that everybody "should" know how to be responsible. (not refering to you. but obviously "accidents/negligence" must happen enough to cause people to take such precautionary measures. plus the above mentioned points of metal to the head, etc..)

    i'm sorry......to much downtime lately. to much thinking time in the head. i'll quite cluttering this thread.

    i'll try to be there if i can.
    I prefer to assume on the side of safety in training, due to being an absolute stickler for safety, I haven't seen an untentional discharge in one of my classes. I know of several and have seen the patched walls.

    Any time one does force on force training one can expect some injuries. A miss placed kick,punch,elbow ect ect. I have seen cuts,sprains, tore mussles, bullet holes in training aids ect. No bullets holes in people yet. I plan on keeping it that way.

    The more real and harder one trains the more chance of injury. one can end ones career or alter ones life with an mishap in training or worse end up dieing

    Train safe, train hard be cafefull

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Crap, I just realized I have to work that evening.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    crap. not going to be able to make it.

    are you going to be having another class sometime soon or after the holidays???

  20. #20
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    I called Sue and was added to the email group. She said there will be more classes after the holidays.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Yes, Tom says he will make this a regular offering in his rotation of advanced / continuing ed classes.
    I may take it again.
    We had about 12 people & it was a blast. I'm still limping.
    (Next time, ibuprofen before class in addition to another dose + the spiked eggnog after I get home.)

    Class actually went a bit longer than scheduled, & most of it was hands-on, either attacking the dummies or using plastic guns with each other.
    Very very little used real guns, after they were checked several times for no ammo. (No worries about mine... I can only shoot citrus.)

    One point he made very early, & is a bit of a philosophical change from similar training I've had, is that we were not learning self-defense. We were learning how to overwhelm an attacker in order to get away, get them to decide to leave, or at least have room to draw & fire. For that brief period between the attack starting & ending the defender has to be more violent & determined than the attacker.

    The proverbial can of whoop-ass was much in evidence as we pummeled those creepy green canvas dummies.
    I had to chuckle at the guys (that would be everyone else in the class): even on the dummies, only maybe 1 or 2 could bring themselves to do groin strikes. The rest kneed what would be the thigh or lower abdomen.

    And yes, the heavy gloves are neccessary when working on retention / takeaways with the plastic pistols. Doing it with metal on bare hands is gonna hurt.
    That's something we need to spend more time on to really have it useful when needed. Definitely a perishable skill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Yes, Tom says he will make this a regular offering in his rotation of advanced / continuing ed classes.
    I may take it again.
    We had about 12 people & it was a blast. I'm still limping.
    (Next time, ibuprofen before class in addition to another dose + the spiked eggnog after I get home.)

    Class actually went a bit longer than scheduled, & most of it was hands-on, either attacking the dummies or using plastic guns with each other.
    Very very little used real guns, after they were checked several times for no ammo. (No worries about mine... I can only shoot citrus.)

    One point he made very early, & is a bit of a philosophical change from similar training I've had, is that we were not learning self-defense. We were learning how to overwhelm an attacker in order to get away, get them to decide to leave, or at least have room to draw & fire. For that brief period between the attack starting & ending the defender has to be more violent & determined than the attacker.

    The proverbial can of whoop-ass was much in evidence as we pummeled those creepy green canvas dummies.
    I had to chuckle at the guys (that would be everyone else in the class): even on the dummies, only maybe 1 or 2 could bring themselves to do groin strikes. The rest kneed what would be the thigh or lower abdomen.

    And yes, the heavy gloves are neccessary when working on retention / takeaways with the plastic pistols. Doing it with metal on bare hands is gonna hurt.
    That's something we need to spend more time on to really have it useful when needed. Definitely a perishable skill.
    It's great and refreshing when we can read a post about training, gaining experience and overall knowledge with out anyone spouting "we don't need any training". Sorry I couldn't resist.

    JJC

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJC
    It's great and refreshing when we can read a post about training, gaining experience and overall knowledge with out anyone spouting "we don't need any training".
    I've said it before:
    training is good,
    more training is better,
    gov't-mandated training is bad.

    This was entirely voluntary, so people are cool about it.

    (Actually, IMO gov't-manded almost anything is at best questionable. Things like nationwide coordination of laws that affect everyone is good [I'm thinking of uniform traffic laws]. Health & safety measures are generally good but have at times gotten out of hand. And one of the primary & most proper functions of gov't is protecting the rights of citizens.)

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    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    I assume the police officer who dropped his gun at the mall and "it accidentally went off" will be attending this class. *rimshot*

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I've said it before:
    training is good,
    more training is better,
    gov't-mandated training is bad.

    This was entirely voluntary, so people are cool about it.
    Good to know there will be other classes. Looking forward to participating.

    Do we really need to purchase a blue training handgun?
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