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Thread: What would you do?

  1. #1
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    What would you do?

    The situation I'm about to describe is based off a real event.

    Female A and female B are in the same restaurant as you while you're carrying but you at a completely different table. The females complain to the owner that their food is cold and demand to receive a free meal. The owner offers a discount since they have already eaten their food and the females become hostile and refuse to pay. The females attempt to flee the restaurant when they are chased by the restaurant owner who is also female. You and a couple other customers notice the owner and female A are getting in an altercation and you all decide to break it up. While trying to get to the door female B leans up to the door which prevents you from getting out to help the owner. While trying to get outside female A pulls out a deadly weapon, and female B is still blocking the door. What would you do?

    EDIT: Change the situation to being a loved one who was outside at the car and someone means them harm and has a partner blocking the door. Since many if not all of us would probably not be getting involved in the above situation. The answer I'm really looking for is what would you do to try to get woman B off the door. Stainless's idea of shouting "cops" I think is a great idea. I hadn't thought of it.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 12-09-2011 at 11:08 AM.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  2. #2
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    yell "COPS" as loud as you can, when the person blocking the door moves, or looks away, and she will, you slip past, and do what you need to do and no more. There is a possibility that yelling cops like that will stop the other one with the weapon as well, or at least make them run, or hesitate long enough for the victim to escape, or for you to take action.

  3. #3
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Why would you ask? I'm not sure people should respond. Lawyers can search this forum. I will tell you that I have a variation on stainless' response that works for several scenarios, and yes, this is something I have worked out long ago.
    Last edited by griffin; 12-09-2011 at 04:09 AM.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I'd ask why I was running after Ms. dineanddasher in the first place.

    But since I'm now at the door and must deal with Ms. Blockthedoor I need to figure out how to do that without committing an offense of battery.

    And while I'm trying to remember the magic spell to teleport outside I can do any number of things in an attempt to distract Ms. Dineanddasher, warn the owner who may or may not be aware of the threat, or merely be a good witness who can also turn Ms. Blockthedoor into an accessory in the first degree for whatever her buddy is doing.

    Or I can negate Ms. Blockthedoor's attempt at keeping me inside and do whatever I think was reasonable and necessary to defend an innocent third party - except that there is some speculation that the owner may not qualify as an innocent person because they initiated the confrontation by giving chase.

    See what happens when you spend just a second thinking about what's really going on?

    Now - let's do the whole scenario over again, but this time I'm a cop on break, eating dinner. Then let's play it out once more with me still being a cop, eating dinner, but this time I stop off after having completed my shift.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  5. #5
    Regular Member StingMP9's Avatar
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    Stand your ground/Castle doctrine doesn't apply to you in this situation
    Doing too much will have negative results for you and your family
    Foolish exercise IMHO
    "Reason can never be popular. Passions and feelings can become popular, but reason will always remain the sole property of a few eminent individuals."
    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

  6. #6
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StingMP9 View Post
    Stand your ground/Castle doctrine doesn't apply to you in this situation
    Doing too much will have negative results for you and your family
    Foolish exercise IMHO
    I'm not sure if it would apply to the person up against the door but you would definitely be covered to use deadly force or force other than deadly force under the stand your ground law if woman A pulls out a deadly weapon. The law states you can use deadly force or force other than deadly force if you feel it is necessary to prevent the imminent death or imminent great bodily harm. Using force against woman B may very well be necessary to prevent imminent death or imminent great bodily harm.

    780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime

    Sec. 2. (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
    (a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
    (2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  7. #7
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    I too, don't believe I would be doing anything.... once dine and dash went on the run, I would maybe call the po-po... but I woudln't be over at the door gawking I don't think.... and I really don't want to get involved over someone else's $8.99 plate of food... The owner was especially stupid to chase one while the other was sitting right there. Very dangerous. If I saw the assault, I would definately call police and be ready if anything bloody started going down, but still probably would not get in the middle. I don't pretend to be Billy Badass: Defender of the City.

    I remember one time my sister chased these 3 punk kids (like 10-11) around the corner and down sort of an alley only to have 5-6 more kids down there... and I don' care what anyone says, 8-10 punk 10-14 year old hood rats can be DANGEROUS, especially to a smaller female adult.

    Getting out of your element and into ssomeone else's is not a smart thing to do.



    I sort of like the idea of yelling COPS ARE HERE or something like that... but not sure if that would work. I would never announce myself as a cop just because that seems like a great way to get into some real trouble.



    I enjoy these little exercises though.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

  8. #8
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Well how about instead of the owner of the restaurant it's now a loved one who went out to the car and now someone who is trying to do them harm has a partner blocking the door.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  9. #9
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    If their partner is blocking the door and it's my child or wife who is about to be assaulted or killed, then I'm not going to care about possibly going to jail or the legality of it. I'm going to defend my loved one and this person is an accessory to whatever is going down as far as I"m concerned... so if they're helping do it, they might as well be doing it and I'm not hesitating. The problem comes in when it's not someone I know, etc... the risk of legal troubles is too great. If it's your close loved one's, it's a no brainer for me.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

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    Quoted wrong poster sorry
    Last edited by stainless1911; 12-09-2011 at 12:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Well how about instead of the owner of the restaurant it's now a loved one who went out to the car and now someone who is trying to do them harm has a partner blocking the door.
    Its not going to change the legality of it. They really dont care about your loved ones, only the written laws, words of a politician who are generally out of touch with no respect for the constitution or the people they serve.

  12. #12
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Its not going to change the legality of it. They really dont care about your loved ones, only the written laws, words of a politician who are generally out of touch with no respect for the constitution or the people they serve.
    I realize it doesn't change the legality I'm more concerned about what people would do in this type of situation if they needed to get outside but the door was blocked.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  13. #13
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    Most would take the assault on the door guard to save the loved one.

    Dont talk to the police, let the lawyers do their thing,. and a jury would likely understand.

  14. #14
    Regular Member StingMP9's Avatar
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    I will ignore the request for what if our loved ones were under attack because you know we would all ACT

    But for the restaurant owner in the OP; I believe that the justice system would be used against the good citizen acting to stop the assault with much force. Calling the Police is the best response although we all hate to sit by and watch something terrible happen to her.
    "Reason can never be popular. Passions and feelings can become popular, but reason will always remain the sole property of a few eminent individuals."
    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    unless the deadly weapon is being used, or CLEARLY going to be used, i wouldnt do anything but be a good witness....i feel alot of the more lowly people that like to argue in public and all that which brandish weapons, do so as a scare tactic, and have little if any intent of actually using the weapon.

    call 911, notify them of the situation, and that i am legally armed but am not intervening at that time(unless i was intervening) and notify dispatch of what is happening, as it is happening, staying on phone until LEO's arrive.
    i would try and situate myself as best as i could to safely, and legally intervene with any appropriate force required to protect myself, or other innocent parties from any of the circumstances listed in our state self defense law.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  16. #16
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Break a window.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I'm not sure if it would apply to the person up against the door but you would definitely be covered to use deadly force or force other than deadly force under the stand your ground law if woman A pulls out a deadly weapon. The law states you can use deadly force or force other than deadly force if you feel it is necessary to prevent the imminent death or imminent great bodily harm. Using force against woman B may very well be necessary to prevent imminent death or imminent great bodily harm.
    Castle Doctrine deals with "any place you have a right to be".Article 1 Sec. 6 states "Every person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the STATE(which consists of our fellow citizens)".In other words,you have the right to be there and defend your fellow citizen from deadly force with deadly force!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    Break a window.

    You cant be in commission of a crime, or you cant use the self defense act as a defense.

    The sheeple allowed our rights to be violated time and time again leaving themselves defenseless, and us in greater danger of the law than the lawless. Therefore, I say, just sit by and watch. They chose to live in a world without guns, let them reap the rewards of their inaction or treason, whichever the case may be.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamaneggs View Post
    Castle Doctrine deals with "any place you have a right to be".Article 1 Sec. 6 states "Every person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the STATE(which consists of our fellow citizens)".In other words,you have the right to be there and defend your fellow citizen from deadly force with deadly force!
    But recall that the owner ran after Ms. Dashanddine, thus moving from being the victim of a misdemeanor to the aggressor of what may be either a misdemeanor or felony and thus moving Ms. Dashanddine from being the criminal to being the victim of an assault and possibly battery. Ms. Dashanddine now has the right to defend herself, even though she is still a criminal for the dash-and-dine event.

    There are times when I am amazed at how easily folks lose sight of the finer details of a scenario because they are focused on the first element instead of paying attention to the whole picture.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  20. #20
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    IF the one in immediate danger of grave bodily harm/death/unwanted sexual penetration were someone important to me then instead of wasting precious time farting around at the door being held closed I'd.........................






















    go out the freaking back door and come around to the front outside.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 12-09-2011 at 08:43 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  21. #21
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    You cant be in commission of a crime, or you cant use the self defense act as a defense.
    I took the question at face value.

    If someone is blocking the door, and I desperately need to get out, I'll break a window. Yeah, I'll pay for it later if I need too. However, the equation is not difficult to solve.

    If this situation involved loved ones being attacked that were outdoors. Yeah, I can't tell you exactly what I would do, but the least of my worries would be a window.. I'll tell ya that much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

  22. #22
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Yeah I really just wanted to hear different insight because I heard a story very similar and thought what would I do and I wasn't sure. It's surprising how the simplest ideas don't pop into your head. Especially under stress.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  23. #23
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    If somebody is unlawfully blocking an exit or illegally detaining you, and you clearly advised them to step aside…..IMO what ever happens after that is on them. If this was me and I asked them to move, the door would be coming open, end of story.

    As far as the rest of the situation I won’t comment as it has been pointed out that anyone can read this forum and it could possibly be used against you down the road.

  24. #24
    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    What I would do, is go home and thrash myself for not being able to push the door open with one woman holding it, especially while having help from a couple other customers! I think surrendering my man card would be in order as well.

  25. #25
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    Correction

    I respect all responses first and foremost.

    However I know exactly what xmanhockey is talking about, and as far as I understand, the owner did not chase them, she merely tried to stop them from walking out when they denied to pay. That is when woman A started to use deadly force (and she was, the owner suffered severe injuries) against the owner and woman B blocked people from entering to help. Also I know that these two women were very large, and the owner is a tiny old lady.... and very nice.

    If I had been sitting there eating when this happened, once it reached to the point of the woman using deadly force, I would have dialed 911, set the phone down, and done whatever necessary to get woman A off of the poor old lady while staying in my rights, which it is. There is no reason why this owner, who is in her 70's had to spend time in the hospital healing from multiple fractures to her face.

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