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Thread: What would you do/ have done if you where in my shoes?

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    What would you do/ have done if you where in my shoes?

    Well, about a week ago/ two weeks ago... I went to visit my parents (in a city that doesn't allow OC). No, I wasn't OCing, but I was CC. As I waited on my parents pourch for them to open the door... a fully grown, adult male German Sheaperd spotted me as he was strooling down the street. He locked eyes on me... at that point I said "oh f**k" in my head. As he cross the street towards me, I said in my command voice, "leave... get out of here, etc". Each time the dog stopped, and proceeded on towards me. Once it was about 20 feet from me (and I'm still ringing the doorbell as a crazy man), it quickly dropped its ears and I thought...ok he's tamed. At that split second.... he raised his lip and showed his teeth and went into attacked mode! I reached for my firearm gave another command for it to leave. It pounced up towards me about 3 feet from my arm, I fired a shot into the ground. The dog gave me a second look and quickly ranned down the street! And then... my parents open the door...wow...strange huh?

    Well, now, just the other day, the dog returned, trying to attack the kids next door, luckly they made it in, but the dog would not leave. They called my parents to warn them also... so my parents called the police (that showed up 30 minutes later), They did not do "anything" but called the anminal control... that had to tranqualized the dog and take it away because of its agressivness!

    From what we all could tell... the dog was taken care of (good coat, etc), but no tags, etc. Sometimes I wonder... Should I have shot the dog? This dog was extremly agressive and it probably weighed about 130 lbs. I shot into the ground only to scare the dog away... but then I thought about it after the police was called... what if, my parents where out side and I wasn't there? My old man is 78 years old and he uses a walker. From the car to the front door is about a 50ft walk (and up 7 steps). The kids in the area are about 13 years old and younger... if one of them where to get mauled or died... I feel that I could have prevented that. Yeah, I probably would have to pay a fine for discharging a firearm and then having a dead dog on my parents poruch...

    What would you guys have done if you where in my shoes during that time?

  2. #2
    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    Funny this story comes up just a few days after i shot an IDPA match with a scenario of a dog attacking a child. If that were me that dog would have been dead for sure. Personally im not a big fan of animals number one, and to me a "domesticated" animal should know its place. Yeah, I wouldve given it a few slugs for its troubles.

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    Regular Member NG19's Avatar
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    First question, if you fired into the ground, did you get a fine for discharge of a weapon? Surely the police heard the shot and came investigating. If not, did you think about getting the citation when the dog was charging? Now, if it were me and the dog had its ears back, teeth showing, and either barking or growling at me before charging. I would have not had a second thought in my head but protect myself, besides what was beyond the dog so as not to harm anyone. If I were to get the citation, I would have accepted it and possibly fought it in court.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    If you were in fear of your life you should dispatch the animal. If the shot you fired into the ground did not discourage the dog it couild be held that the shot made the dog attack you!
    The Missouri wildlife code book, I don't have one handy,contains a chapter where discarge of firearm to protect yourself from an animal is acceptable.
    "Warning shots are 100% wrong" If something goes wrong with a "warning shot" who is the agressor? YOU!

    If you pull a firearm from it's holster in a dangerous situation, shoot to remove the danger, you are protecting yourself from immediate risk of losing your life.
    "Warning shots" are for the movies, not real life!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    A scary situation and one I'm glad you came out of alright. This has really got me thinking. I would not wish to kill anything, that I don't have to(may sound strange from a hunter, but I that's a different thread), but in this case I would have had to put the dog down. You said that you didn't fire a warning shot until the dog was three feet from you. What if that had not stopped the animal? Three feet can be covered almost instantaneously by a dog that size. You may have only had time for that one shot and you used it as a warning. Not judging, I was not there, and I am glad you were not hurt, just pointing out that in such a case you may have wasted your only opportunity for self defense. That was not the case this time and I am glad, both for you and the dog, but is it worth risking it if there is a next time?

    The truly crazy thing is that had you shot the dog the police, probably would have been there in a flash, not 30 min. later, like when the dog chased the kids.

    Anyway glad you came out OK.
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    Shooting into the ground would not have entered into my mind. I am not sure a firearm would have been employed at all actually. Since you describe it as in the loo, there was not a good potential backstop for a bullet.

    The firearm is to stop threats of deadly force. A punch in the eye is not ample force to shoot someone. A dog bite while painful and potentially very dangerous I am not sure meets the criteria of deadly force without more mitigating factors.

    1. I doubt I would have let a strange dog get within three feet of me.
    2. When it lunged, I most likely would have punted its ass into the street, size 10 redwings make an awesome weapon.
    3. I would have then began beating the ever loving crap out of it.
    4. If by chance it got me into a position where I feared for my life, I would have shot it dead but understand, the muzzle of my weapon would be in contact or within a couple of inches before I pulled the trigger.

    IMHO no dog is a competitive factor for s full grown healthy man, killing it with your bare hands is not a particularly hard task. In the case of your father or others whom might be in ill health or lack the strength to fight it off, the situation is different.
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    Regular Member RPGamingGirl's Avatar
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    I think i would have done what you did.

    Technically, you were "wrong" to fire within city limits. But since it was determined later that the dog was enough of a threat to tranq, then your instincts were right. It would have been "more right" to shoot the dog and be done with it. But it's so hard to say in the moment; hindsight and all that. We all hope that, faced with a situation like this, the LEOs would be understanding and look at the circumstances rather than the letter of the law.

    It comes down to knowing how things are generally looked at in town; how do neighbors treat each other and how involved does local law enforcement get. Where i live, the deputies are very "live and let live." If no one's hurt when they show up, they're very happy. They don't create trouble where there isn't any, so i would feel comfortable pushing some grey areas that i wouldn't in other, more unforgiving places.

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Shooting into the ground would not have entered into my mind. I am not sure a firearm would have been employed at all actually. Since you describe it as in the loo, there was not a good potential backstop for a bullet.

    The firearm is to stop threats of deadly force. A punch in the eye is not ample force to shoot someone. A dog bite while painful and potentially very dangerous I am not sure meets the criteria of deadly force without more mitigating factors.

    1. I doubt I would have let a strange dog get within three feet of me.
    2. When it lunged, I most likely would have punted its ass into the street, size 10 redwings make an awesome weapon.
    3. I would have then began beating the ever loving crap out of it.
    4. If by chance it got me into a position where I feared for my life, I would have shot it dead but understand, the muzzle of my weapon would be in contact or within a couple of inches before I pulled the trigger.

    IMHO no dog is a competitive factor for s full grown healthy man, killing it with your bare hands is not a particularly hard task. In the case of your father or others whom might be in ill health or lack the strength to fight it off, the situation is different.
    I don't disagree with much of what you say. However, 130lbs animal is not the easiest to punt. I've had several run ins with dogs; some ended with both parties leaving in different directions; however, some didn't take the hints and I came out on top. I guess what I'm saying is every circumstance is different and depending on what is taking place, demands a different approach.

    In the OPs scenario, if my pistol came out of the holster, it would not have fired a warning shot.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    I don't disagree with much of what you say. However, 130lbs animal is not the easiest to punt. I've had several run ins with dogs; some ended with both parties leaving in different directions; however, some didn't take the hints and I came out on top. I guess what I'm saying is every circumstance is different and depending on what is taking place, demands a different approach.

    In the OPs scenario, if my pistol came out of the holster, it would not have fired a warning shot.
    If a full grown German Shephard goes for you throat, the next sound heard would be gurgle, gurgle, gurgle as you took your last gaps of air... too late!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    If a full grown German Shephard goes for you throat, the next sound heard would be gurgle, gurgle, gurgle as you took your last gaps of air... too late!
    Hence, more than likely, the dog in the OPs scenario wouldn't have had a second chance.

  11. #11
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    Hence, more than likely, the dog in the OPs scenario wouldn't have had a second chance.
    Agree!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NG19
    If it were me and the dog had its ears back, teeth showing, and either barking or growling at me before charging, I would have not had a second thought in my head but protect myself, besides what was beyond the dog so as not to harm anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD
    Shooting into the ground would not have entered into my mind.
    These.
    The dog was a threat, it was showing aggression, kept coming at you, & was finally close enough to contact you in less time than you could move or shoot.
    Warning shots are Hollywood.
    Also, 4-footed animals are unlikely to understand them other than as a loud noise.
    If you fear for your well-being or life, shoot the danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by lmtd
    4. If by chance it got me into a position where I feared for my life, I would have shot it dead but understand, the muzzle of my weapon would be in contact or within a couple of inches before I pulled the trigger.
    If a large aggressive dog were to get that close to you, you'd be injured, probably severely.
    In the situation as described, there's no way I'd shoot anything but the dog.
    I like dogs, but one that's attacking me is just as bad as a 2-legged predator attacking me.
    Only differences are size & weaponry.

    A smaller dog, one that I thought I could dissuade by kicking, shooting would not be my first choice.
    But one that's more than half my mass/weight?!?!

    no dog is a competitive factor for s full grown healthy man, killing it with your bare hands is not a particularly hard task.
    I'd like to see you fight off a dog as described by the OP.
    Better yet, since "no dog" is a problem, take on a police dog. (With their permission.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314 View Post
    Well, about a week ago/ two weeks ago... I went to visit my parents (in a city that doesn't allow OC). No, I wasn't OCing, but I was CC. As I waited on my parents pourch for them to open the door... a fully grown, adult male German Sheaperd spotted me as he was strooling down the street. He locked eyes on me... at that point I said "oh f**k" in my head. As he cross the street towards me, I said in my command voice, "leave... get out of here, etc". Each time the dog stopped, and proceeded on towards me. Once it was about 20 feet from me (and I'm still ringing the doorbell as a crazy man), it quickly dropped its ears and I thought...ok he's tamed. At that split second.... he raised his lip and showed his teeth and went into attacked mode! I reached for my firearm gave another command for it to leave. It pounced up towards me about 3 feet from my arm, I fired a shot into the ground. The dog gave me a second look and quickly ranned down the street! And then... my parents open the door...wow...strange huh?

    Well, now, just the other day, the dog returned, trying to attack the kids next door, luckly they made it in, but the dog would not leave. They called my parents to warn them also... so my parents called the police (that showed up 30 minutes later), They did not do "anything" but called the anminal control... that had to tranqualized the dog and take it away because of its agressivness!

    From what we all could tell... the dog was taken care of (good coat, etc), but no tags, etc. Sometimes I wonder... Should I have shot the dog? This dog was extremly agressive and it probably weighed about 130 lbs. I shot into the ground only to scare the dog away... but then I thought about it after the police was called... what if, my parents where out side and I wasn't there? My old man is 78 years old and he uses a walker. From the car to the front door is about a 50ft walk (and up 7 steps). The kids in the area are about 13 years old and younger... if one of them where to get mauled or died... I feel that I could have prevented that. Yeah, I probably would have to pay a fine for discharging a firearm and then having a dead dog on my parents poruch...

    What would you guys have done if you where in my shoes during that time?


    Had it been my dog, you would have been recieving some return fire, without a doubt. It's a dog. Not hard to disarm, or out-smart. Throw something in another direction, it will usually run after it. No need for shots unless one's actually chomping down on someone,which -contrary to popular mythology- they will rarely do unless tormented or made to feel threatend.
    This nonsense people hear in the news about dogs just mauling folks "for no apparent reason" is just that-nonsense.

    I have a very playful pitbull. She's black, and runs very fast and jumps very high. Sometimes folks see it in passing and are terrified, and I have to explain to them that no, she's more likely to lick all the skin off your face, than anything else. Many folks see dogs acting in certain ways, and assume danger. Sometimes it's just a matter of the dog being playful. The key to telling which isnt the ears, nor even growling-which can also be playful- the key is the tail.
    Tail-up= good to go, no worries no matter what else the dog is doing/saying
    Tail-down= maybe you should walk NOT RUN the other way.
    But shoot? Not mine, unless you have an overwhelming urge to feel 230 grains of John Browning's Happy Pills entering you.
    Last edited by j4l; 12-10-2011 at 02:16 PM.

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    Regular Member xdmcompact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Had it been my dog, you would have been recieving some return fire, without a doubt. It's a dog. Not hard to disarm, or out-smart. Throw something in another direction, it will usually run after it. No need for shots unless one's actually chomping down on someone,which -contrary to popular mythology- they will rarely do unless tormented or made to feel threatend.
    This nonsense people hear in the news about dogs just mauling folks "for no apparent reason" is just that-nonsense.

    I have a very playful pitbull. She's black, and runs very fast and jumps very high. Sometimes folks see it in passing and are terrified, and I have to explain to them that no, she's more likely to lick all the skin off your face, than anything else. Many folks see dogs acting in certain ways, and assume danger. Sometimes it's just a matter of the dog being playful. The key to telling which isnt the ears, nor even growling-which can also be playful- the key is the tail.
    Tail-up= good to go, no worries no matter what else the dog is doing/saying
    Tail-down= maybe you should walk NOT RUN the other way.
    But shoot? Not mine, unless you have an overwhelming urge to feel 230 grains of John Browning's Happy Pills entering you.
    So you feel that if your dog attacked someone and they had to defend themselves against it, that your dog's life is worth more than a humans? This world has gotten out of hand when people feel that an animal's life is worth more than a human beings life.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Many people have Pit Bulls that are "friendly family pets".. That's Ok, but once in a while (As reported in the news) these little darlings will tear the neck of a child or infant wide open. Bad puppy! No dog is worth a human life, pit bull or other wise, they are nice pets, bu tthey are "ANIMALS" none the less.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by NG19 View Post
    First question, if you fired into the ground, did you get a fine for discharge of a weapon? Surely the police heard the shot and came investigating. If not, did you think about getting the citation when the dog was charging? Now, if it were me and the dog had its ears back, teeth showing, and either barking or growling at me before charging. I would have not had a second thought in my head but protect myself, besides what was beyond the dog so as not to harm anyone. If I were to get the citation, I would have accepted it and possibly fought it in court.
    I have asked around and NO ONE HEARD my gun shot!!!??? Yeah, its a .380. Kinda felt bad... my gun is so quiet. But all I could think about was not getting bit. I NEVER been bit, but I hard that German Sheaperds are the worse.

    Overall, I think I should have "capped" the dog. But no, no citations etc... I got lucky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    If you were in fear of your life you should dispatch the animal. If the shot you fired into the ground did not discourage the dog it couild be held that the shot made the dog attack you!
    The Missouri wildlife code book, I don't have one handy,contains a chapter where discarge of firearm to protect yourself from an animal is acceptable.
    "Warning shots are 100% wrong" If something goes wrong with a "warning shot" who is the agressor? YOU!

    If you pull a firearm from it's holster in a dangerous situation, shoot to remove the danger, you are protecting yourself from immediate risk of losing your life.
    "Warning shots" are for the movies, not real life!
    Good point. I hate to say it... but next time, I will have a mess to clean up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    A scary situation and one I'm glad you came out of alright. This has really got me thinking. I would not wish to kill anything, that I don't have to(may sound strange from a hunter, but I that's a different thread), but in this case I would have had to put the dog down. You said that you didn't fire a warning shot until the dog was three feet from you. What if that had not stopped the animal? Three feet can be covered almost instantaneously by a dog that size. You may have only had time for that one shot and you used it as a warning. Not judging, I was not there, and I am glad you were not hurt, just pointing out that in such a case you may have wasted your only opportunity for self defense. That was not the case this time and I am glad, both for you and the dog, but is it worth risking it if there is a next time?

    The truly crazy thing is that had you shot the dog the police, probably would have been there in a flash, not 30 min. later, like when the dog chased the kids.

    Anyway glad you came out OK.
    In a way ( know its stupid), I was basically prepared when/if he bits me. First shot was a "warning", the next 14 would have been in him. Even if I where to be biten. Yeah, at 3 feet or even 10 feet, I should have put the dog down. just have to remember, if I pull it, to use it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Shooting into the ground would not have entered into my mind. I am not sure a firearm would have been employed at all actually. Since you describe it as in the loo, there was not a good potential backstop for a bullet.

    The firearm is to stop threats of deadly force. A punch in the eye is not ample force to shoot someone. A dog bite while painful and potentially very dangerous I am not sure meets the criteria of deadly force without more mitigating factors.

    1. I doubt I would have let a strange dog get within three feet of me.
    2. When it lunged, I most likely would have punted its ass into the street, size 10 redwings make an awesome weapon.
    3. I would have then began beating the ever loving crap out of it.
    4. If by chance it got me into a position where I feared for my life, I would have shot it dead but understand, the muzzle of my weapon would be in contact or within a couple of inches before I pulled the trigger.

    IMHO no dog is a competitive factor for s full grown healthy man, killing it with your bare hands is not a particularly hard task. In the case of your father or others whom might be in ill health or lack the strength to fight it off, the situation is different.
    I see your points... this was damn Cou-jo looking dog. Normally, if I have to "fight" a dog, yeah, I would have kicked etc... but this dog looked very much of a 150 lb or more. I guess I just figured it was someone's dog and it got out... But at the same time... I'm like... I need to get out of here.

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    You done good, except for firing the first shot into the ground. I've had to hunt feral dogs and I did not want any one of them to get closer than fifty yards to me. Even then, they can cover fifty yards pretty quickly.

    I, too, would hate to have to shoot someone's pet, but if that pet comes after this old man, I will do whatever it takes to stop the attack. As for the owner, he/she should have had their animal under better control. And a 130lb dog of any breed is, at my age, a threat to my life if it attacks. Not to mention that, if there are children in the area, I would not want it on my conscience that I let an aggressive animal go away to later hurt a child.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Had it been my dog, you would have been recieving some return fire, without a doubt. It's a dog. Not hard to disarm, or out-smart. Throw something in another direction, it will usually run after it. No need for shots unless one's actually chomping down on someone,which -contrary to popular mythology- they will rarely do unless tormented or made to feel threatend.
    This nonsense people hear in the news about dogs just mauling folks "for no apparent reason" is just that-nonsense.

    I have a very playful pitbull. She's black, and runs very fast and jumps very high. Sometimes folks see it in passing and are terrified, and I have to explain to them that no, she's more likely to lick all the skin off your face, than anything else. Many folks see dogs acting in certain ways, and assume danger. Sometimes it's just a matter of the dog being playful. The key to telling which isnt the ears, nor even growling-which can also be playful- the key is the tail.
    Tail-up= good to go, no worries no matter what else the dog is doing/saying
    Tail-down= maybe you should walk NOT RUN the other way.
    But shoot? Not mine, unless you have an overwhelming urge to feel 230 grains of John Browning's Happy Pills entering you.
    Sorry, I love dogs, but I know when a dog wants to attack. If I did shoot the dog and you want to return fire... what you can throw, I can return and I have a huge family and armory (gun shop dealers) to go with it. Not to mention a few lawyers in the family. Not to go off into a threating email, etc. As you know of this is about self defense, if your dog shows it want to attack or it does leaving the person with no other choice, it with be handlen with... After all, you would want the same respect. If you love your dog, keep it on a leash. But then again, if your dog is that friendly, then you should really have no problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xdmcompact View Post
    So you feel that if your dog attacked someone and they had to defend themselves against it, that your dog's life is worth more than a humans? This world has gotten out of hand when people feel that an animal's life is worth more than a human beings life.
    I agree, life gets pretty dangerous when a pet owner cannot accept that their pet can attack someone and they want to end the life of a human...so wow, what other ilegal things they did. To me, that shows they cannot handle a firearm. Good judgement should be used...if it was my dog and I'm sure she's a happy go lucky dog... but if my dog attacked someone and had to put her down... then so be it. Yeah, i wouldn't like it. But that's why there are leash laws. Irresponsible owner... irresponsible decidsions= innocent life lost(s).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314 View Post
    ...I fired a shot into the ground.
    Intentionally?

    There's no shame in saying "I missed"; a charging dog is a very difficult target to hit. Personally, I would rather claim that I missed, than that I fired a warning shot.

    I infer that you don't have much experience with dogs. You mistook the lowered ears as a sign of submission, rather than impending attack. When you gave the dog "orders", were you speaking as you would to a person? Don't don't speak English, and don't respond to arguments. They understand sounds, volume, cadence, but most of all attitude. Dogs definitely sense fear, and this one knew you were scared.

    Please don't take this the wrong way, because it's not your fault for not knowing, but I'd suggest that you get some experience working with dogs. Just watch a dozen hours or so of The Dog Whisperer, even; you'll learn a lot about how dogs' brains work. In my experience, people who are attacked by dogs tend to be attacked multiple times. It's not unlike domestic abuse victims giving off a vibe that attracts more abusers.

    Even people who own dogs often don't understand them very well. Spend some time learning, just in case.

  24. #24
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    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Florissant, Mo
    Posts
    227
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Intentionally?

    There's no shame in saying "I missed"; a charging dog is a very difficult target to hit. Personally, I would rather claim that I missed, than that I fired a warning shot.

    I infer that you don't have much experience with dogs. You mistook the lowered ears as a sign of submission, rather than impending attack. When you gave the dog "orders", were you speaking as you would to a person? Don't don't speak English, and don't respond to arguments. They understand sounds, volume, cadence, but most of all attitude. Dogs definitely sense fear, and this one knew you were scared.

    Please don't take this the wrong way, because it's not your fault for not knowing, but I'd suggest that you get some experience working with dogs. Just watch a dozen hours or so of The Dog Whisperer, even; you'll learn a lot about how dogs' brains work. In my experience, people who are attacked by dogs tend to be attacked multiple times. It's not unlike domestic abuse victims giving off a vibe that attracts more abusers.

    Even people who own dogs often don't understand them very well. Spend some time learning, just in case.
    sad to say, I purposly shot into the ground, in hopes the sound would have sacared him off... which it did. Yeah, 3 feet was way too close. I had a few dogs in my life, I'm no expert. I had the vision basically in my head, if he grabs on to me, i'm unloading the clip (15 rounds of .380) into his chest or head. At this range, I always practice shooting from the hip... no need to extend the arm if he's on me. But after talking to a few people... at 10 feet I should have put one in him. We all have our boundarys.... for people probably within 5 feet you can get shot... dogs...probably within 30 feet is a treat to use deadly force. Hey, we all "live and learn" what really got me to think is the last post I got from a guy talking about, if this where to happen to his dog and I would have shot at it, he'll be out to shoot me???? WOW, people are out here willing to commit murder over an animal that was going to attack or have attacked. I use to work at a maxium secruity jail...let me say this... it aint worth going to jail over a dog. Why got to jail for 15-50 years for "standing up" for a dog? Honestly, the guys in jail would have had fun with him on that one. Standing up for a dog and being thrown in jail is almost like being conviticed for rape... they are seen as weak people. Don't take my word for it, ask any inmate who is serving a "dime" or more.... but thanks for the comments.
    Last edited by Firedawg314; 12-11-2011 at 02:52 AM.

  25. #25
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828
    Not to hijack but anyone familiar with the "Tueller Drill"

    If a human attacker can cover 20 feet and have a 50% chance of stabbing a trained LEO in the chest before the same officer can draw/fire their service weapon AND most ANY attacking dog or other larger animal can cover the ground faster and with more maneuverability than ANY human..... yep, waiting until the attacking dog is within 5 feet is WAY TOO LATE to draw. Even from Low ready the dog could be on you from 10 feet before you can lift and fire... in my opinion.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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