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What would you do/ have done if you where in my shoes?

Firedawg314

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Messages
227
Location
Florissant, Mo
Had it been my dog, you would have been recieving some return fire, without a doubt. It's a dog. Not hard to disarm, or out-smart. Throw something in another direction, it will usually run after it. No need for shots unless one's actually chomping down on someone,which -contrary to popular mythology- they will rarely do unless tormented or made to feel threatend.
This nonsense people hear in the news about dogs just mauling folks "for no apparent reason" is just that-nonsense.

I have a very playful pitbull. She's black, and runs very fast and jumps very high. Sometimes folks see it in passing and are terrified, and I have to explain to them that no, she's more likely to lick all the skin off your face, than anything else. Many folks see dogs acting in certain ways, and assume danger. Sometimes it's just a matter of the dog being playful. The key to telling which isnt the ears, nor even growling-which can also be playful- the key is the tail.
Tail-up= good to go, no worries no matter what else the dog is doing/saying
Tail-down= maybe you should walk NOT RUN the other way.
But shoot? Not mine, unless you have an overwhelming urge to feel 230 grains of John Browning's Happy Pills entering you.

Sorry, I love dogs, but I know when a dog wants to attack. If I did shoot the dog and you want to return fire... what you can throw, I can return and I have a huge family and armory (gun shop dealers) to go with it. Not to mention a few lawyers in the family. Not to go off into a threating email, etc. As you know of this is about self defense, if your dog shows it want to attack or it does leaving the person with no other choice, it with be handlen with... After all, you would want the same respect. If you love your dog, keep it on a leash. But then again, if your dog is that friendly, then you should really have no problems.
 

Firedawg314

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Messages
227
Location
Florissant, Mo
So you feel that if your dog attacked someone and they had to defend themselves against it, that your dog's life is worth more than a humans? This world has gotten out of hand when people feel that an animal's life is worth more than a human beings life.

I agree, life gets pretty dangerous when a pet owner cannot accept that their pet can attack someone and they want to end the life of a human...so wow, what other ilegal things they did. To me, that shows they cannot handle a firearm. Good judgement should be used...if it was my dog and I'm sure she's a happy go lucky dog... but if my dog attacked someone and had to put her down... then so be it. Yeah, i wouldn't like it. But that's why there are leash laws. Irresponsible owner... irresponsible decidsions= innocent life lost(s).
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
...I fired a shot into the ground.
Intentionally?

There's no shame in saying "I missed"; a charging dog is a very difficult target to hit. Personally, I would rather claim that I missed, than that I fired a warning shot.

I infer that you don't have much experience with dogs. You mistook the lowered ears as a sign of submission, rather than impending attack. When you gave the dog "orders", were you speaking as you would to a person? Don't don't speak English, and don't respond to arguments. They understand sounds, volume, cadence, but most of all attitude. Dogs definitely sense fear, and this one knew you were scared.

Please don't take this the wrong way, because it's not your fault for not knowing, but I'd suggest that you get some experience working with dogs. Just watch a dozen hours or so of The Dog Whisperer, even; you'll learn a lot about how dogs' brains work. In my experience, people who are attacked by dogs tend to be attacked multiple times. It's not unlike domestic abuse victims giving off a vibe that attracts more abusers.

Even people who own dogs often don't understand them very well. Spend some time learning, just in case.
 

Firedawg314

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Messages
227
Location
Florissant, Mo
Intentionally?

There's no shame in saying "I missed"; a charging dog is a very difficult target to hit. Personally, I would rather claim that I missed, than that I fired a warning shot.

I infer that you don't have much experience with dogs. You mistook the lowered ears as a sign of submission, rather than impending attack. When you gave the dog "orders", were you speaking as you would to a person? Don't don't speak English, and don't respond to arguments. They understand sounds, volume, cadence, but most of all attitude. Dogs definitely sense fear, and this one knew you were scared.

Please don't take this the wrong way, because it's not your fault for not knowing, but I'd suggest that you get some experience working with dogs. Just watch a dozen hours or so of The Dog Whisperer, even; you'll learn a lot about how dogs' brains work. In my experience, people who are attacked by dogs tend to be attacked multiple times. It's not unlike domestic abuse victims giving off a vibe that attracts more abusers.

Even people who own dogs often don't understand them very well. Spend some time learning, just in case.

sad to say, I purposly shot into the ground, in hopes the sound would have sacared him off... which it did. Yeah, 3 feet was way too close. I had a few dogs in my life, I'm no expert. I had the vision basically in my head, if he grabs on to me, i'm unloading the clip (15 rounds of .380) into his chest or head. At this range, I always practice shooting from the hip... no need to extend the arm if he's on me. But after talking to a few people... at 10 feet I should have put one in him. We all have our boundarys.... for people probably within 5 feet you can get shot... dogs...probably within 30 feet is a treat to use deadly force. Hey, we all "live and learn" what really got me to think is the last post I got from a guy talking about, if this where to happen to his dog and I would have shot at it, he'll be out to shoot me???? WOW, people are out here willing to commit murder over an animal that was going to attack or have attacked. I use to work at a maxium secruity jail...let me say this... it aint worth going to jail over a dog. Why got to jail for 15-50 years for "standing up" for a dog? Honestly, the guys in jail would have had fun with him on that one. Standing up for a dog and being thrown in jail is almost like being conviticed for rape... they are seen as weak people. Don't take my word for it, ask any inmate who is serving a "dime" or more.... but thanks for the comments.
 
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JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
Not to hijack but anyone familiar with the "Tueller Drill"

If a human attacker can cover 20 feet and have a 50% chance of stabbing a trained LEO in the chest before the same officer can draw/fire their service weapon AND most ANY attacking dog or other larger animal can cover the ground faster and with more maneuverability than ANY human..... yep, waiting until the attacking dog is within 5 feet is WAY TOO LATE to draw. Even from Low ready the dog could be on you from 10 feet before you can lift and fire... in my opinion.
 

j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Sorry, I love dogs, but I know when a dog wants to attack. If I did shoot the dog and you want to return fire... what you can throw, I can return and I have a huge family and armory (gun shop dealers) to go with it. Not to mention a few lawyers in the family. Not to go off into a threating email, etc. As you know of this is about self defense, if your dog shows it want to attack or it does leaving the person with no other choice, it with be handlen with... After all, you would want the same respect. If you love your dog, keep it on a leash. But then again, if your dog is that friendly, then you should really have no problems.

Ok, here's the thing. Simple. Extremely simple.
Dogs (no matter which breed) dont just go charging you from somewhere down the block for ***** n giggles. Not happening.
They dont just suddenly wake up from their nap and think "oh, a human 5 doors down- lets attack him!!" Not happening.
Nor do cats, bear or even Alligator.

All these nonsense stories you hear about folks being "suddenly" attacked by something= bogus.
There is almost always (yet almost never reported, told, or admitted to) some foolishness or other on the part of the "victim" human.

They run on instinct- not emotions or conscious decisions to act like we do. Unless something has threatened, hurt or harmed or has cornered an animal to where it feels trapped, and has to act to survive, it's not attacking. (unless trained to do so by someone, and thus commanded to do so- which, again, imparts some foolisness or other on the part of the "victim" to begin with).


To answer the other's comments- Yes. 100% my dog's life is worth more than just about anyone else outside of my household.It's as much a member of my family as anyone on 2 legs. And it would be defended-to the death, if need be, just as I would any other.
 
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Griz

Regular Member
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Feb 14, 2010
Messages
315
Location
, ,
Had it been my dog, you would have been recieving some return fire...

Good luck with that. Witnesses will see a large dog attacking someone and that person defend themselves. Then an another man enters the fray to attack the original defender.

Right...
 

j4l

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Location
fl
Good luck with that. Witnesses will see a large dog attacking someone and that person defend themselves. Then an another man enters the fray to attack the original defender.

Right...

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xdmcompact

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
289
Location
St Louis City
To answer the other's comments- Yes. 100% my dog's life is worth more than just about anyone else outside of my household.It's as much a member of my family as anyone on 2 legs. And it would be defended-to the death, if need be, just as I would any other.

It's a sad day when someone is willing to take a life to protect an animal. I could understand if someone broke into your house and shot your dog but, if your dog attacked someone and you killed them in retaliation of them protecting themselves, you can look forward to a long prison sentence.
 

j4l

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It's a sad day when someone is willing to take a life to protect an animal. I could understand if someone broke into your house and shot your dog but, if your dog attacked someone and you killed them in retaliation of them protecting themselves, you can look forward to a long prison sentence.

Why must you insist on inputting things into the equation that didnt happen? This dog didnt attack ANYONE.
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I have had a dog of mine shot-and killed- while barking to alert me to the approach of folks coming to attempt a home-invasion.
I was not armed, at the time, (once bitten-never again) thankfully the commotion, and the continued barking of my other, surviving dog, convinced them to abandon that attempt. My dog didnt attack anyone, the attackers were still some 40 meters off-property, with a shotgun.

But that goes back to the point I made before, even in that situation, had my dog attacked them, she STILL would have been protecting ME, and defending my home and family. Had I been armed, at that moment, I would have gunned-down as many of them as I could have.

If you cant grasp the concept of dogs being very much a part of the family-especially after they attempt to protect and warn you of dangers- then I do hope you dont have any dogs or pets. If so, plz, for their sake- let someone else adopt them.

I stand by what I said. I've a lot more respect for my 4-legged family than I do for a significant number of 2-legged scumbags walking this earth.
The real shame is that I should have any valid reasons for that to be the case.
 

peterarthur

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
613
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Shooting into the ground would not have entered into my mind. I am not sure a firearm would have been employed at all actually. Since you describe it as in the loo, there was not a good potential backstop for a bullet.

The firearm is to stop threats of deadly force. A punch in the eye is not ample force to shoot someone. A dog bite while painful and potentially very dangerous I am not sure meets the criteria of deadly force without more mitigating factors.

1. I doubt I would have let a strange dog get within three feet of me.
2. When it lunged, I most likely would have punted its ass into the street, size 10 redwings make an awesome weapon.
3. I would have then began beating the ever loving crap out of it.
4. If by chance it got me into a position where I feared for my life, I would have shot it dead but understand, the muzzle of my weapon would be in contact or within a couple of inches before I pulled the trigger.

IMHO no dog is a competitive factor for s full grown healthy man, killing it with your bare hands is not a particularly hard task. In the case of your father or others whom might be in ill health or lack the strength to fight it off, the situation is different.

Fought a 130 lb greman shepherd with your bare hands? Punted it?? :) I seriously doubt that unless you are an extremely large and/or dangerous martial artist or something like that. Most humans would be hard pressed to handle a dog half that size. A dog does not equal a person and does not require the same danger as a human to kill. You can kill a stray in your yard if it acts dangerous without waiting for imminent danger. i know because I did and talked to police officers afterward. They agreed that I was completely justified.

He had come in the yard a few times and growled when approached. Animal control could not catch him. The police could not catch him. The officer told my wife that shooting him would be perfectly legal. She missed on her first try. When he came back days later, I just waited for him to mosey through my back yard down in the ravine where it would be safest to shoot it, From 50 yards (yes, I live in Kansas City proper on a few acres with neighbors in all directions), I lung shot him in "cold blood" with my AR-15, then finished him with a head shot at close range. I dragged him to the street and waited for the police to respond to a shots fired call. There was no call. I called city services to pick up "a dead dog" in front of my house. 3 days later (thankfully there was snow to keep him fresh) when they came to pick him up, the driver remarked that he looked like he had been shot which was interesting since I was open carrying. He just made a knowing look, loaded the dead dog and left. I talked days later with random officers and they totally agreed that I did the right thing.

Dogs are not people. The threat does not have to be imminent like it would need to be for a person. I would do it again, although, I admit I was very sad about shooting a dog for the first time. Especially since he left a trail of blood in the snow all the way across my property that lasted for a week...

By the way, my kids named the dead dog "Target"... which is pointless since he wouldn't come when they called.
 

G30Mike

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
120
Location
St. Joseph MO
It's a sad day when someone is willing to take a life to protect an animal. I could understand if someone broke into your house and shot your dog but, if your dog attacked someone and you killed them in retaliation of them protecting themselves, you can look forward to a long prison sentence.

+1
The "Id return fire" response is simply assinine. If my animal was shot in self defense, Id be the first one apoligising for the person that had to kill it. As i said before, animals should know their place. That place being their yard or home. If an animal is outside their safe zone and acting aggressively, theyre fair game in my book. If said induvidual that shot your dog was law enforcement, i guarantee you wouldnt be saying youd "return fire". At least Id hope not....
 

j4l

Regular Member
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Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Dont bank on it. The offer stands for whoever is shooting.
Now, IF (again, not happening-and DID NOT happen in the case the OP posted), the dog had defied it's nature and attacked someone, un-provoked (which, again, in reality-urban legends/interweb myths aside,doesnt happen) that would be an altogether different matter.

Once more. The dog mentioned in the original post DID NOT ATTACK ANYONE/THING, if the OP's version was accurate.
The only thing that DID happen, was someone got scared of a dog, some distance away, and over-reacted. All these "what-ifs" going on in here -typically- avoid that fact.
 

xdmcompact

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
289
Location
St Louis City
Why must you insist on inputting things into the equation that didnt happen? This dog didnt attack ANYONE.
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I have had a dog of mine shot-and killed- while barking to alert me to the approach of folks coming to attempt a home-invasion.
I was not armed, at the time, (once bitten-never again) thankfully the commotion, and the continued barking of my other, surviving dog, convinced them to abandon that attempt. My dog didnt attack anyone, the attackers were still some 40 meters off-property, with a shotgun.

But that goes back to the point I made before, even in that situation, had my dog attacked them, she STILL would have been protecting ME, and defending my home and family. Had I been armed, at that moment, I would have gunned-down as many of them as I could have.

If you cant grasp the concept of dogs being very much a part of the family-especially after they attempt to protect and warn you of dangers- then I do hope you dont have any dogs or pets. If so, plz, for their sake- let someone else adopt them.

I stand by what I said. I've a lot more respect for my 4-legged family than I do for a significant number of 2-legged scumbags walking this earth.
The real shame is that I should have any valid reasons for that to be the case.

Why must you insist on inputting things into the equation that didn't happen? The dog was not warning anyone of an intruder or of a home invasion, it saw the OP on his parents porch and went towards him. Then as he tried to command the dog to leave, the dog dropped its ears and showed its teeth. Seems to be clear that the dog was the aggressor, so by your opinion the dog only attacked because he told the dog to leave? Would you have tried to pet the nice doggy or yelled at it also? What would have been your next move had the dog attacked? Oh wait dogs don't attack because you say they don't. Sorry for your flawed thinking about animal attacks. You have your opinions and so does everyone else, just seems like yours is fantasy and nowhere near the real world.
 

j4l

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Jan 6, 2011
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fl
Why must you insist on inputting things into the equation that didn't happen? The dog was not warning anyone of an intruder or of a home invasion, it saw the OP on his parents porch and went towards him. Then as he tried to command the dog to leave, the dog dropped its ears and showed its teeth. Seems to be clear that the dog was the aggressor, so by your opinion the dog only attacked because he told the dog to leave? Would you have tried to pet the nice doggy or yelled at it also? What would have been your next move had the dog attacked? Oh wait dogs don't attack because you say they don't. Sorry for your flawed thinking about animal attacks. You have your opinions and so does everyone else, just seems like yours is fantasy and nowhere near the real world.

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kcgunfan

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Feb 22, 2011
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KC
So, when you are arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder, do you think you will just say "But he killed my dawg" and the case will be dismissed?

You might want to seek legal advice before doing this if you are serious.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
 

j4l

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So, when you are arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder, do you think you will just say "But he killed my dawg" and the case will be dismissed?

You might want to seek legal advice before doing this if you are serious.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

If said dog didnt actually have anyone in it's teeth when killed, yes absolutely.
Not sure what nonsense you folks have, law-wise in Missouri, but here his shooting the dog would have been a 3rd degree felony if it were not in fact (which in the OP's post, for the 1000000th time, it wasnt) attacking anyone at the time, and would have been defensible for return fires by the owner.
(and yes, after my incident I have made sure to check that out with our LE, because the same folks had shot and killed another neighors dog under circumstances much like my own, as a result-we consider it a high likelyhood of the boneheads doing it yet again.-It has been made perfectly clear- to the suspects, the suspect's parents, and LEOs that return fires will ensue if it happens again, and one of us armed neighbors are present to do so)

Just being scared of something isnt justification for shooting him/her/it, or AT it.
 

hermannr

Regular Member
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Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
If the dog was on your (your parent's) property and attacking you (3' away is pretty conclusive), I would not have missed. It is called self defence. Sounds like you would have been doing the neighborhood a favor.

Then here in WA, any dog not under the control of it's owner, and off property of the dog owner, is just another coyote anyway, and may be treated as such.

Only problem with actually shooting the dog is cleaning up the mess.
 

Morpheus97

Regular Member
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Mar 12, 2011
Messages
130
Location
Florissant, MO
I wasn't there, but based on the details provided I believe better judgement could have been used.

First of all, warning shots in general are a bad idea, especially in this case since you were standing on a porch in a city. Based on your post, the warning shot was either fired into the porch (typically concrete or wood), or was fired at an angle into dirt. Either scenario could create a ricochet and hit an innocent bystander. I make these assumptions because you never mention leaving the porch.

Secondly, if the dog was approaching you with the intent of attacking it would likely have been running, not walking. I have to asume the dog was moving at a slow speed, because the warning shot was fired when the dog was three feet away and the dog fled. Had the dog been running, it could not have stopped within that short distance. If a 130 pound German Shepherd is within three feet of you and he wants you dead, you're out of luck.

I'm not saying the dog wasn't a potential threat, but I do believe your actions contributed to the confrontation. Look at things from a different perspective. German Shepherds are known to be protective. If he is a neighborhood dog and he sees you acting frantically ("...I'm still ringing the doorbell as a crazy man"), he may have considered you to be the threat and was trying to scare you away. Of course, he should not be roaming freely through the city neighborhood, but that's another issue.

It sounds like the best possible outcome occurred, no one (including the dog) was injured or killed. The second best scenario would have been everyone but the dog walked away uninjured.


I can't say exactly what I would have done, but with having the luxury of thinking about your situation after it happened here is what I would hope to do under similar circumstances.

1. Remain calm. Dogs "read" people very well and sense fear in them.
2. Try to get in the house. You were ringing the doorbell so I assume the door was locked. Since it was a family member's house, it would not have been inappropriate to walk in unexpected under the circumstances.
3. Try to get back to your vehicle (without running) if it was close enough.
4. Look for something within reach to keep the dog away from your body (maybe a chair on the porch) or something to use as a club.
5. Try to move to a position to shoot the dog (nothing behind the dog) if it continued moving in a threatening manner towards you. That may be very difficult in a city setting.
6. If all else fails, hold your gun in your strong hand while using your weak arm as a shield. If the dog attacks, you will get bitten (hopefully only in the arm) but then you can shoot the dog at close range towards the ground to minimize the chance of a shoot-thru hitting someone else. A dog's natural instinct is to go for the neck, so a torn up arm is not ideal but better than the alternative.
 

goalseter88

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Mar 4, 2010
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Kansas city, Kansas United States
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Some dogs are just naturally aggressive. That is there Motivation.

second. your "i dont offer opinions, i offer reality." Is the most retarded thing i read. You can't comment on the reality of the OP statements. YOu werent there. Your statement of the OP being wrong iseven based of your opionion.

Why dont you drop this. Your not going to win this fight. And that is just patheic you even think of shooting someone defending themself against your dong. Based on your OPIONION that your dog couldnt possible be the aggressor. I like to see how that court case went.
 
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