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Thread: Dispatcher to Officer: "Use caution. CCW." --- Standard procedure?

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    Question Dispatcher to Officer: "Use caution. CCW." --- Standard procedure?

    I like to listen to a radio scanner for road conditions during winter storms. It was running in the background for a bit today while I searched the Internet for the latest relevant frequencies. One conversation between a dispatcher and officer caught my attention. At first I thought I heard the dispatcher say something about "CCW." After a pause I heard the same dispatcher come back and clearly say "Use caution. CCW." and wait for an acknowledgment from the officer. The officer acknowledged the message and seemed to go about business.

    I don't listen to the scanner regularly, so my apologies if this is a silly question. Is this standard procedure? It was my personal impression that an officer in Wisconsin is supposed to handle the discovery about whether someone is carrying a weapon and is a Concealed Carry License holder before they confirm license validity with a system provided by the Wisconsin Department of Justice. Seems to me that what happened in this case was the reverse--The dispatcher searched for a name in a database of CCL holders and provided info back to the officer on the scene. Did I misunderstand how the process is supposed to work? Does this process vary by department? Is every stopped Wisconsin Concealed Carry License holder now branded by a dispatcher as requiring "caution" regardless of whether they are actually carrying a weapon or not? I think some clarity from the experts would be appreciated by all. Thanks in advance!

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    By law That's not how it's supposed to work..but....that illegal practice behavior would not surprise me one bit. Every Traffic stop now get's a CCW check before the officer approaches the car..Illegal but who is going to stop every LE agency in the state from doing it on a daily basis ??? If that is what happened does it surprise anyone that the Police would side step the Law for their own benefit (( i mean safety )) ?
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Where did it happen? What dept? What day and time?

    Can the radio call/stop be requested through the FOIA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Where did it happen? What dept? What day and time?

    Can the radio call/stop be requested through the FOIA?
    Yes it can. :-D
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Well I don't know about you but this seems like a pretty serious offense.

    Hope we can get some more info from the OP.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet
    Where did it happen? What dept? What day and time?
    Can the radio call/stop be requested through the FOIA?
    What he said.

    Write a FOIA request for radio & phone traffic for maybe 15min either side of when you heard that, in case your memory or their timer is off.
    That's a clear violation of the law, and should be brought to light ASAP.
    In fact, if they do that routinely, perhaps an investigative reporter should FOIA radio traffic for all their motor vehicle stops since 01NOV & see how many more violations they've racked up.

    A very good example of why there should not be permits or a database.
    And that department needs some training...
    "use caution" with a licensee?!?!?! Idiots.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Also possible that it's someone just dropping a rock in the pond to see what happens.
    Give him a couple days to get back to us with the details.
    OTOH, if we do get details, I'd like to see what that LEA would do with FOIA requests from across the state, asking for recordings of radio traffic for different time periods...
    If we get enough people, we could each ask for 1 day.
    Wouldn't be too expensive, & they couldn't try to deny the request as being too burdensome.

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    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBlock View Post
    ...Is every stopped Wisconsin Concealed Carry License holder now branded by a dispatcher as requiring "caution" regardless of whether they are actually carrying a weapon or not? I think some clarity from the experts would be appreciated by all. Thanks in advance!
    What was the station identification/to what jurisdiction were you listening?

    It is clear that the legislative intent was to prevent a vehicle registration/drivers license being branded as belonging to a CCL holder. It is as clear that their attempt was ineffective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Statutes
    175.60(12g) PROVIDING LICENSEE INFORMATION TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES.
    (a) The department shall provide information concerning a specific individual on the list maintained under sub. (12) (a) to a law enforcement agency, but only if the law enforcement agency is requesting the information for any of the following purposes:
    1. To confirm that a license or certification card produced by an individual at the request of a law enforcement officer is valid.
    2. If an individual is carrying a concealed weapon and claims to hold a valid license issued under this section or a valid certification card issued under s. 175.49 (3) but does not have his or her license document or certification card, to confirm that an individual holds a valid license or certification card.
    3. If the law enforcement agency is a Wisconsin law enforcement agency, to investigate whether an individual submitted an intentionally false statement under sub. (7) (b) or (15) (b) 2.
    (b) 1. Notwithstanding s. 19.35, neither a law enforcement agency nor any of its employees may make information regarding an individual that was obtained from the department under this subsection available to the public except in the context of a prosecution for an offense in which the person’s status as a licensee or holder of a certification card is relevant.
    2. Neither a law enforcement agency nor any of its employees may store or maintain information regarding an individual that was obtained from the department under this subsection based on the individual’s status as a licensee or holder of a certificate card.
    3. Neither a law enforcement agency nor any of its employees may sort or access information regarding vehicle stops, investigations, civil or criminal offenses, or other activities involving the agency based on the status as licensees or holders of certification cards of any individuals involved.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 12-12-2011 at 08:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK21GB View Post
    By law That's not how it's supposed to work..but....that illegal practice behavior would not surprise me one bit. Every Traffic stop now get's a CCW check before the officer approaches the car..Illegal but who is going to stop every LE agency in the state from doing it on a daily basis ??? If that is what happened does it surprise anyone that the Police would side step the Law for their own benefit (( i mean safety )) ?
    i agree with what he said

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    I hope the OP has additional information. This could be proof of a MAJOR procedure infraction.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I hope the OP has additional information. This could be proof of a MAJOR procedure infraction.
    Do you have a better citation to the law than §175.60(12g) posted above? In the same way that state firearms preemption and the time limit on issue of CCL is ineffective, so is §175.60(12g).

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    Was this a routine traffic stop, or was it an MWAG with a concealed weapon, not necessarily licensed, or something else? It is possible the dispatcher had this information from a different source, like the 911 caller. ("my husband has been beating me... and he carries a gun")
    Around here, CCW refers to (illegally) carrying of a concealed weapon, not licensed carry of a handgun.

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    This happened yesterday (Sunday 12/11/2011). I live in Dane County. The scanner was on from about 12:20PM to 1:40PM. I think the conversation in question occurred just after 12:30PM. I suspect this was a routine stop, but I am not sure. There was some initial confusion and discussion about a legal name change for the person that was involved. My scanner has a lot of frequencies programmed and I did not get a look at which frequency came up when the conversation in question occurred. I think I can export the frequencies and groups to a file. Off the top of my head, the frequencies include: Madison, Sun Prairie, Dane County, Wisconsin State Patrol, a whole bunch of non-PD frequencies, and perhaps others. I don't know anything about FOIA requests, sorry. Is it possible that the dispatcher was referring to something other than CCL status? I would just like to know what a Wisconsin CCL holder should expect if s/he is stopped by a Law Enforcement Officer. Sounds like the answer might not be so simple though.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    And now a lesson in the law of unintended consequences -
    Officer Friendly, upon notifying dispatch that he is about to make a stop, listens for but does not hear a "Use Caution - CCW" warning.

    No warning, so no need to be extra vigilant, right? Good move, dispatch, you've just lulled Officer Friendly into lowering his guard, and most likely his guard is lowered against someone who Hasn't gone to the trouble of, or someone who is ineligible to obtain a license.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msusnVet View Post
    There really is no need to resort to law enforcement name calling. Until this incident has been verified the outrage is not justified. Might turn out to be another scam post.
    Name calling and outrage? Are we reading the same post?
    I can tell you've been Rady8ed, you have a nice glow about you.

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    Herr Heckler Koch
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    My suggestion is that you may have been hearing skip.

    A Wisconsin Open Records Request in re - in the matter of - a Concealed Carry License is prohibited by 175.60(12g)3(b)1. I am sure that an open records demand will be refused on those grounds.

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    Regular Member tomm1963's Avatar
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    Soon the publics ability to monitor LEO radios will be gone

    Milwaukee has already digitized and encrypted its radio traffic. Others I'm sure will soon be following.

    http://city.milwaukee.gov/DailyNewsA...equest-Mon.htm

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Ive heard that also...not lately, though. Usually its used to refer to an individual who has a history of illegal CCW usage. Or who may have restraining order issued and there is known ownership of firearms. (i know this one TOOOOO well)

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    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    Usually its used to refer to an individual who has a history of illegal CCW usage. Or who may have restraining order issued and there is known ownership of firearms.
    Those records may no longer be legally kept under §175.60(12g)3(b)2 "2. Neither a law enforcement agency nor any of its employees may store or maintain information regarding an individual that was obtained from the department under this subsection based on the individual’s status as a licensee or holder of a certificate card." Illegal CCW can only be determined from the department.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Those records may no longer be legally kept under §175.60(12g)3(b)2 "2. Neither a law enforcement agency nor any of its employees may store or maintain information regarding an individual that was obtained from the department under this subsection based on the individual’s status as a licensee or holder of a certificate card." Illegal CCW can only be determined from the department.
    I shouldve stated that i wasnt refering to the CCL permit card....but to 'illegally carried weapons' or individuals with an RO.
    Last edited by GlockRDH; 12-12-2011 at 09:43 AM. Reason: clarity

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    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    The report from the scanner sounds believable...

    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK21GB View Post
    By law That's not how it's supposed to work..but....that illegal practice behavior would not surprise me one bit. Every Traffic stop now get's a CCW check before the officer approaches the car..Illegal but who is going to stop every LE agency in the state from doing it on a daily basis ??? If that is what happened does it surprise anyone that the Police would side step the Law for their own benefit (( i mean safety )) ?
    ..., it was reported as, may have, might be. I would like to know where GLOCK21GB found his information on this unlawful practice that he has stated to be SOP at a state wide level. Would you please reference your source Mr. GLOCK21GB. Thank you, boar out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomm1963 View Post
    Milwaukee has already digitized and encrypted its radio traffic. Others I'm sure will soon be following.

    http://city.milwaukee.gov/DailyNewsA...equest-Mon.htm
    I wouldn't worry about that too much. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has been dinking around with OpenSky for over ten YEARS now , and the system STILL doesn't work . Ask the State of New York about OpenSky ; they'll give you an earful.

    Harris Communications should be dragged over hot coals for even trying to sell that piece of $hite radio system . . . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBlock View Post
    I like to listen to a radio scanner for road conditions during winter storms. It was running in the background for a bit today while I searched the Internet for the latest relevant frequencies.----snip----
    What was the physical location of your scanner? Not the street address, but the city/county and state particularly - also the frequency heard as that can likely be tied to the LEA in question.

    While not an accusation, we occasionally have "drive-by" posters who make claims, then never return to respond. Would prefer to suppose that you are legitimate, but only you or time can clarify.

    We're waiting or (to borrow your phrase), running/monitoring in the background.
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    Regular Member tomm1963's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Pennsylvanian View Post
    I wouldn't worry about that too much. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has been dinking around with OpenSky for over ten YEARS now , and the system STILL doesn't work . Ask the State of New York about OpenSky ; they'll give you an earful.

    Harris Communications should be dragged over hot coals for even trying to sell that piece of $hite radio system . . . . .
    One caveat. The radio upgrades are driven by free federal money (which cities can not turn down) and are Federally mandated.

    See MABAS link http://www.mabaswisconsin.org/

    All thanks to Sept 11, Katrina and other disaster that had various agencies unable to communicate. The main reason the fed wants the analog radio system digitized is to free up band width for other things. A digital radio uses tremendously less frequency band width. The FCC wants the band width back so it can be re licensed for things like wireless routers and what not. It is all about the money.

    The MFD is rushing their Open Sky radios into service by the end of the year or they lose 2 million federal dollars.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBlock View Post
    I like to listen to a radio scanner for road conditions during winter storms. It was running in the background for a bit today while I searched the Internet for the latest relevant frequencies. One conversation between a dispatcher and officer caught my attention. At first I thought I heard the dispatcher say something about "CCW." After a pause I heard the same dispatcher come back and clearly say "Use caution. CCW." and wait for an acknowledgment from the officer. The officer acknowledged the message and seemed to go about business.

    I don't listen to the scanner regularly, so my apologies if this is a silly question. Is this standard procedure? It was my personal impression that an officer in Wisconsin is supposed to handle the discovery about whether someone is carrying a weapon and is a Concealed Carry License holder before they confirm license validity with a system provided by the Wisconsin Department of Justice. Seems to me that what happened in this case was the reverse--The dispatcher searched for a name in a database of CCL holders and provided info back to the officer on the scene. Did I misunderstand how the process is supposed to work? Does this process vary by department? Is every stopped Wisconsin Concealed Carry License holder now branded by a dispatcher as requiring "caution" regardless of whether they are actually carrying a weapon or not? I think some clarity from the experts would be appreciated by all. Thanks in advance!
    I heard something on the scanner yesterday as well in Waukesha. All I heard was conceal carry and nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomm1963 View Post
    Milwaukee has already digitized and encrypted its radio traffic. Others I'm sure will soon be following.

    http://city.milwaukee.gov/DailyNewsA...equest-Mon.htm
    Technically Open Sky is not digital.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSky

    It is also a terrible radio system.

    http://blog.tcomeng.com/index.php/20...radio-systems/
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