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Thread: OC in Schools Afterhours

  1. #1
    Regular Member Scotchman's Avatar
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    OC in Schools Afterhours

    I have a question that I think is easy but want a second opinion to make sure. I attend an Amateurr Radio Club meeting which uses an Elementary School for its monthly evening meetings. I started to OC back in August and now "someone is scared by it and has asked the club to request I leave it behind"....

    The simply answer to me seems that the answer is, I dont need to. I attend with my kids and it is late at night and therefore safer to be armed.

    Am I correct that there is nothing they can really do other than harrass me? Or should I back away? My kids would rather continue the meetings if we can.

    thanks, I know it is probably very simple but thought I should ask you guys.

    I made sure that they got the MPS update. They admit that they know the law now! I just want to make sure that the School will still not be an issue and if not... That other newbies like myself never get intimidated by the fear-mongers out there.
    Luke 22:36 * [Jesus said] ... and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    We all hear John 3:16 or Matthew 7:1 - by people who never read the rest of those chapters either.

    John 3:36 * He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Ignorance is NOT Bliss.

  2. #2
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...erford-Schools

    Read that thread and decide what's best for you and your situation.
    Last edited by TheQ; 12-11-2011 at 11:38 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  3. #3
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    Good advice.

    Its an instruction manual to show the .gov how to screw a person out of using thier God given rights.

    Just remember, OCers are the first line of defense for the students in this state. There are no other protections in place for them at this time. They may be able to catch the blood on video, but that's the best effort thus-far.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Here's an idea

    I would ask the club to sign a document stating that they assure your safety and are fully responsible for you and yours safety / well being, while attending the meetings and while on the property. Do so in a friendly manner. They of course will NOT sign it. Then you can ask them: "if they are not going to take responsibility for your safety, then why shouldn't you?" Watch the baffled looks as the try to spin their way out of a valid question to their irrational response to your legal OC??? Then ask them if you carried concealed (don't it would break the law) would they be okay? If they say CC is fine ask them why a pistol out of sight is okay? It would be smart to carry a voice recorder at minimal or even better a stealth video recorder so you can post their responses

    I think you will probably find that you will either have to give up your right to self defense or face more issues from them and the School district.

    It's not right or lawful, but they get away with it most of the time in my honest opinion.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 12-12-2011 at 01:29 PM. Reason: typo, recorder
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by CV67 PAT View Post
    Why doesn't anyone else have problems like this? Just sayin'.
    Go to Waterford to watch the next high school game, bake sale or whatever OCing, and let us know how it goes.

    FWIW, everything that was done at Waterford was done "by the book".

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Go to Waterford to watch the next high school game, bake sale or whatever OCing, and let us know how it goes.

    FWIW, everything that was done at Waterford was done "by the book".
    Quote Originally Posted by CV67 PAT View Post
    Already done that. Went last fall with my friend and his son. We were not unnoticed either.

    Maybe a different "book" is in order.
    This is just my opinion here: Pat is vastly different in appearance then Stainless (I am told age/social status/etc..) is. Should this matter? In a perfect world no. But I suspect if Stainless showed up to school to visit his child driving a BMW and wearing business clothes the welcome he received may have been very different. Not fair or legal but the truth in my honest opinion.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  7. #7
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    I posted that thread to show the OP the experience another person had in Waterford -- then the person could see what they MIGHT be in for if they decide to push forward.

    Then again the OP might take Legal Update 86 with them next time and everyone might go, "oh, okay. No problem!"

    It's the OP's path and his personal choice.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Scotchman's Avatar
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    OC in Schools Afterhours

    I DID give them a copy of MSP Update 86 and they understand that I am acting Legally. they are just "asking me not to". Seems I stirred a hornets nest. I just wanted to make sure that as they are not even the School but just a renter of the gym afterhours - that their asking is also meaningless.

    This is my first negative encounter and I want it to go as well as possible for the benefit of all OCers.
    Luke 22:36 * [Jesus said] ... and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    We all hear John 3:16 or Matthew 7:1 - by people who never read the rest of those chapters either.

    John 3:36 * He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Ignorance is NOT Bliss.

  9. #9
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    I tried giving them that, as well as having the laws printed, in hand, but they would not so much as look at them.

    The audio is posted for all to hear on my youtube channel, from the first time I OCed at the school to the conference at the local PD with Venator, myself, the principal, head of security the security officer, the Deputy Chief for the Waterford PD, and the PD attorney, Louis Furino. The Attorney misrepresented the laws, both actively and by omission in order to achieve the desired "interpretation" of the law.

    Encounter was here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWRJY...Q&feature=plcp

    You can follow up from my channel here : http://www.youtube.com/user/stainless1911?feature=mhee

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    They have given me a written no trespass order.

    Given the opportunity to carry in any other district, I can, and will.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotchman View Post
    their asking is also meaningless.
    Tell them that you're uncomfortable with them not carrying and you are politely asking that all members, that are legaly able, carry an openly visible pistol. When they say they can't do that ask them why another members discomfort is given more consideration than yours.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Quote Originally Posted by CV67 PAT View Post
    You can be trespassed from public property upon which you have a lawful purpose for being present?

    You have received legal counsel that has advised you of the lawfulness of this order?
    Yes, and yes.

    The only way is to take a trespass at this point, and then fight it out in court. The PD attorney already said that they would take it to appeals if I prevailed.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Scotchman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Tell them that you're uncomfortable with them not carrying and you are politely asking that all members, that are legaly able, carry an openly visible pistol. When they say they can't do that ask them why another members discomfort is given more consideration than yours.

    Bronson
    Thank You. I really like that. The meeting is Wednesday and I am more encouraged to go and stand firm.

    Thanks
    Luke 22:36 * [Jesus said] ... and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    We all hear John 3:16 or Matthew 7:1 - by people who never read the rest of those chapters either.

    John 3:36 * He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Ignorance is NOT Bliss.

  14. #14
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Yes, and yes.

    The only way is to take a trespass at this point, and then fight it out in court. The PD attorney already said that they would take it to appeals if I prevailed.


    I wish someone with some DEEP pockets would subsidize Brainless on this one... just based on principle... "we don't care if you're legal, we'll just be such a PITA and abuse the system that you'll comply". Bull Squeeze.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

  15. #15
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    I wish someone with some DEEP pockets would subsidize Brainless on this one... just based on principle... "we don't care if you're legal, we'll just be such a PITA and abuse the system that you'll comply". Bull Squeeze.

    No offense to Stainless, but maybe DEEP pockets and a "Boy Scout" type to take on this issue.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    I would ask the club to sign a document stating that they assure your safety and are fully responsible for you and yours safety / well being, while attending the meetings and while on the property. Do so in a friendly manner. They of course will NOT sign it. Then you can ask them: "if they are not going to take responsibility for your safety, then why shouldn't you?" Watch the baffled looks as the try to spin their way out of a valid question to their irrational response to your legal OC??? Then ask them if you carried concealed (don't it would break the law) would they be okay? If they say CC is fine ask them why a pistol out of sight is okay? It would be smart to carry a voice recorder at minimal or even better a stealth video recorder so you can post their responses

    I think you will probably find that you will either have to give up your right to self defense or face more issues from them and the School district.

    It's not right or lawful, but they get away with it most of the time in my honest opinion.
    Yup. Logic nearly always wins. Until it dosen't,,,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Scotchman View Post
    I DID give them a copy of MSP Update 86 and they understand that I am acting Legally. they are just "asking me not to". Seems I stirred a hornets nest. I just wanted to make sure that as they are not even the School but just a renter of the gym afterhours - that their asking is also meaningless.

    This is my first negative encounter and I want it to go as well as possible for the benefit of all OCers.
    The choice is really up to you. You could comply, and make nice with everyone. Or you could continue with your ultimately lawful activity, and keep trying to reason with them, which would be my advice. Sometimes it just takes time. It took an entire year for me to be able to pick up my daughter before I was more widely accepted, or at least ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Tell them that you're uncomfortable with them not carrying and you are politely asking that all members, that are legaly able, carry an openly visible pistol. When they say they can't do that ask them why another members discomfort is given more consideration than yours.

    Bronson
    Good point!
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

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    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    No offense to Stainless, but maybe DEEP pockets and a "Boy Scout" type to take on this issue.


    Well yes, I agree, there may be another 'victim' that might be better suited to take up the claim... but either way... would be nice to see those types get their butts spanked for trying to abuse the system.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    No offense to Stainless, but maybe DEEP pockets and a "Boy Scout" type to take on this issue.

    None taken. I understand the politics at work in situations like these. Its dirty, but You and G9OS is right, it takes someone pretty, and a BMW helps a lot.

    Sorta the same with girls, the more money you have, the prettier they get.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    Well yes, I agree, there may be another 'victim' that might be better suited to take up the claim... but either way... would be nice to see those types get their butts spanked for trying to abuse the system.
    Yes it would. Hopefully, someone else's battle with Waterford will allow me to exercise my rights someday. I've taken this as far as I can, and had a little help doing it.

  20. #20
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    I tried, but couldn't afford to pay a lawyer to come out.

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    I have carried while attending an ham radio club meeting in Lapeer. I chose to cc, even though i oc on a daily basis. They hold their meetings in the Emergency Operations Center in the basement of the 911 central dispatch center. Although i realize that they cannot legally keep me from carrying, the county could decide to no longer allow the ham radio club to meet at their facility.

    I understand you can't cc at a school, but the concern about change of venue may still be valid. If you push the issue, the school may decide to no longer allow the ham radio club to hold meetings on school property. I think it would be a black eye if one person's behavior were to get the ham radio organization kicked out of their current meeting place.

    just my $0.02

    I support your decision either way. i just wanted to share this concern of mine.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    I'd rather lose the radio than the right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CV67 PAT View Post
    Maybe you got priced out of consideration.

    It is a frequent tactic to price a customer at such a high rate that they will not accept the terms. But if they decide to, the price makes the grief worthwhile.
    Melissa has quoted and offered reduced rates, for anyone in Michigan, based on a case by case basis (financial need) for firearms issues. She has handled a few cases for free (pro bono). Its just like shopping for a car, you don't go to the dealership without cash. If you need financing both the car dealer and Melissa offer this.

    Taking an knowledgeable firearms attorney to Waterford would have been the thing to do, but the CADL and other case may have screwed us to.

  24. #24
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpearce View Post
    Melissa has quoted and offered reduced rates, for anyone in Michigan, based on a case by case basis (financial need) for firearms issues. She has handled a few cases for free (pro bono). Its just like shopping for a car, you don't go to the dealership without cash. If you need financing both the car dealer and Melissa offer this.

    Taking an knowledgeable firearms attorney to Waterford would have been the thing to do, but the CADL and other case may have screwed us to.
    The CADL Situation and Waterford Schools are completely different animals (CADL is not a PFZ by MI Law).

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    Is that how she feels? I dont think I did anything wrong to her.

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