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Thread: OC Encounter with LE at the 4th Ave Winter Street Fair on SUN

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    Regular Member lysander6's Avatar
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    Angry OC Encounter with LE at the 4th Ave Winter Street Fair on SUN

    I am mostly a spectator here but recently had an experience that may bear telling the forum.

    I had an interesting OC encounter with the police on SUN, 11 DEC 2011 at the 4th Avenue Winter Street Art Fair. My wife and I arrived at the Fair at approx 1115 and we spent several hours browsing the vendors and other shops. The entire time I was there I carried my Glock and two spare magazines open on my hip.

    Yes, I realize that 4th Avenue is ground zero for collectivism and government supremacism in Tucson outside of the City government offices. There was even a shabby table in front of Revolutionary Grounds Coffee Shop for the Communist Party USA manned by two drones that had the intellectual efficacy you expect of their ilk.

    I passed by uniformed (and most likely, plain-clothes) cops the entire time we were there. No problems. Then…

    My wife wanted to go into Antigone Books later in the afternoon. While I was browsing the books, a Tucson PD patrolman approached me at approx 1450 in the store and informed me the proprietor of the bookstore called the police because I was open carrying a firearm in her store. Mind you, there was no signage prohibiting firearms. I am respectful of private property and am glad to spend my money elsewhere when a businessman seeks to disarm his clients but that is their decision, I control my own wallet. The cop was very cordial and seemed slightly embarrassed. I agreed to leave the store as soon as I fetched my wife. Then it got more interesting, he mentioned that unless I had a CCW I could not conceal the weapon and had to leave the fair because the Fair promoters frowned on the carrying of firearms at their event but again, no signage or warning anywhere. One has to have a police encounter to be informed of this. I asked him how that request squares with the CC law but he simply gave a Gallic shrug with the knowing nod of “I am simply following orders”. He was kind enough to bring his LT on-board to explain but I had had enough and my wife does not like any encounters with police, at all. I chose to be a well-mannered ambassador for firearms etiquette and we left the fair.

    I am a member of AZCDL and hope they can figure out how Fair promoters using public (e.g., government) streets can prohibit the carry of firearms using the local police as proxies to enforce what I think is an illegal prohibition on OC.

    Even if a private business does not have the signage and the sight of firearms on non-government personnel makes them fill their pants, I will always leave their establishment on request immediately (after I hand them the merchandise I will not purchase) and respect their decision but public streets used for a quasi-private venue?

    I live in Sierra Vista and for the longest time, the signage in Veterans Park prohibited firearms even though they violated state statute. I am accustomed to hoplophobia and an ignorance of laws regarding carry but this appears to be an instance where the police willfully violate the law to satisfy the whims of folks who are not only ignorant of weapons but philosophically hostile to their mere position by the mundanes.
    Last edited by lysander6; 12-12-2011 at 10:32 PM.
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    Regular Member JoeGlock40's Avatar
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    I went there on Friday and entered from the North side entrance and I saw the no firearms signs up there...I just ccd since I didn't trust leaving my gun n a car parked a half mile away with all the cops no where around and hundreds of people walking around... besides there was beer being served so u prob should have known u couldn't get away with oc .. I'm just sayin
    "You may find me one day dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you’ll find me in a pile of brass.” – Trooper M. Padgett

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander6 View Post
    Then it got more interesting, he mentioned that unless I had a CCW I could not conceal the weapon and had to leave the fair because the Fair promoters frowned on the carrying of firearms at their event but again, no signage or warning anywhere.
    Sounds like TPD is still enforcing a Tucson law that was nullified by the new preemption law a couple of years back. After the new law passed, they refused to repeal their statute.

    I have forwarded this thread to my colleagues on the AzCDL Board of Directors.

    Chalres Heller, AzCDL's Communication Director (and head of JPFO), has dealt with TPD on similar issues before.

    Fred

  4. #4
    Regular Member lysander6's Avatar
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    JoeGlock40: besides there was beer being served so u prob should have known u couldn't get away with oc

    Thanks for your thoughts. I would recommend you read PREMISES: The "licensed premises" means the area from which the licensee is authorized to sell, dispense or serve spirituous liquor, as determined by the diagram on file with the Department. ARS 4-101(24). How does that logic parse when an alcohol vendor sells a product and the alcohol is consumed as folks walk and shop. How large is that prohibited space? A restaurant is easy to determine, it is the leased or owned space occupied by the proprietor and his clients. That is not the case at a street fair so what is the legal footprint for the gun-free zone?

    As a matter of fact, any restaurant can even prohibit CCW holders from carrying weapons but they must declare (http://www.azliquor.gov/assets/docum...rearms_faq.pdf) via signage and no signs or warnings were posted at the fair.

    Fred,

    Thanks for checking into this. These violations of preemption are everywhere and not just in Tucson.
    Gun Control is Mind Control.

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  5. #5
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander6 View Post
    As a matter of fact, any restaurant can even prohibit CCW holders from carrying weapons but they must declare (http://www.azliquor.gov/assets/docum...rearms_faq.pdf) via signage and no signs or warnings were posted at the fair.
    With the reference to a CCW permit, that was probably what they were trying to enforce (not the other city ordinance), but questions remain about "premise," who holds the license, etc.

    Charles sent me an email that he will look into it, but not before tomorrow. He has a day job in addition to all his other duties.

    Charles can be reached at charles@libertywatchradio.com .

    Fred

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    Regular Member Malcolm's Avatar
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    Top 100.

    The store clerk called the police? what? why? Well, I know not too shop there. speaking of that. Chipotle at oracle and Ina has a no guns sign. I'm thinking of writing them. the other ones in town don't have one.

    All day no one said anything and it was a book store clerk?

    I vote that if festivals and such ban guns then they should have a free storage facility at the entrances of said events. that's my compromise.
    T.V. brings on a whole new meaning to thinking inside the box.

    -M

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    Chipotle at oracle and Ina has a no guns sign. I'm thinking of writing them. the other ones in town don't have one.
    I've noticed that, and similar signage in that area after the January shooting, knee jerk reaction.

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    The liquor law posts above remind me of the gun shows being held at the Cardinals stadium here in Phoenix. Alcohol being sold and consumed in the gun show, yet there's (obviously) NO shortage of visible guns all over the place.

  9. #9
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    Chipotle at oracle and Ina has a no guns sign.
    The signs are not new. When the Restaurant Carry law first came into effect, they complied with the law by posting their no guns sign near their liquor license in a back hallway. After the law was updated, they put the signs on the front window.

    I'm thinking of writing them. the other ones in town don't have one.
    They are a "skittles, unicorns and rainbows" (left-wing, anti-gun) outfit headquarted in Colorado. I'm sure all their stores in have a no guns sign posted. They just might not be that noticable.

    Fred

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