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Thread: Question 2... what would you do, in the use of deadly force?

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    Question 2... what would you do, in the use of deadly force?

    From my last post I have read a lot of comments from good and…. “different” ones. Speaking on the issue of deadly force… one of the means to use it, prevention of kidnapping.
    (this haven’t happen, just wondering how you all would handle it)
    Let’s say that you just finishing your after Christmas shopping at your local mall. As you about to enter into the parking lot area… you have notice a couple arguing. Your first thought is…. “I don’t want to get involved… let me hurry up…” As you about to get into your car, you notice the woman is threating the guy about child support payments etc… and she take the child from him and quickly get into the car. He’s yelling, “don’t take my child away from me…” as she trying to drive off. As you reach for your cell phone, its in the red and you cannot make a call. What would you do?
    A. Don’t get involved
    B. Quickly walk up while asking the guy, “Hey, is she kidnapping the child?”
    C. Quickly walk up towards the woman and say “are you taking the child from him?”
    D. Just call the cops when you can and take note of the plate number
    Possible action 1….
    You walk up asking the guy if she’s kidnapping the child and he responds with “yes, she is!” Do you,
    A. Try to talk to the woman about her actions and how this is looking?
    B. Pull your gun out and say “please Ms, turn the car off, I am allowed to use deadly force if you leave here with that child because this is kidnapping”
    C. Have the guy call the cops/ dispatcher and while on the phone explain to them what you are doing and need a LEO
    Possible action 2…
    As you walked towards the guy, she attempts to leave with the child and ignore your comments, as you stand about 90 degrees of her front window as she flips you the finger… do you
    A. Shoot her
    B. Allow her to hit you with her car
    C. Tell the guy to get in your car as you follow her
    These are just some of the things that have crossed my mind. As you all know, it the holiday season and we will see crazy things. Of course in this situation, we don’t know some of the following;
    • Maybe she has full custody of the child
    • Maybe he violated a set of legal agreement established by the courts and she has the legal say so of the visitation, such as, she has full legal and sole custody and he has visitations
    • Maybe they have full joint custody, meaning no one has a final say “so” it must be done as a partnership.
    • Maybe she was really being a bit*h and wanted to hurt him by using the kid against him
    • Or maybe she really was going kidnap the child and move far away so that he cannot find them
    The reason can be endless… but as it was mention in other blogs… if you don’t think about it or prepare for it… well, you all know the rest.

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    Regular Member NG19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314 View Post
    From my last post I have read a lot of comments from good and…. “different” ones. Speaking on the issue of deadly force… one of the means to use it, prevention of kidnapping.
    (this haven’t happen, just wondering how you all would handle it)
    Let’s say that you just finishing your after Christmas shopping at your local mall. As you about to enter into the parking lot area… you have notice a couple arguing. Your first thought is…. “I don’t want to get involved… let me hurry up…” As you about to get into your car, you notice the woman is threating the guy about child support payments etc… and she take the child from him and quickly get into the car. He’s yelling, “don’t take my child away from me…” as she trying to drive off. As you reach for your cell phone, its in the red and you cannot make a call. What would you do?
    A. Don’t get involved
    B. Quickly walk up while asking the guy, “Hey, is she kidnapping the child?”
    C. Quickly walk up towards the woman and say “are you taking the child from him?”
    D. Just call the cops when you can and take note of the plate number
    Possible action 1….
    You walk up asking the guy if she’s kidnapping the child and he responds with “yes, she is!” Do you,
    A. Try to talk to the woman about her actions and how this is looking?
    B. Pull your gun out and say “please Ms, turn the car off, I am allowed to use deadly force if you leave here with that child because this is kidnapping”
    C. Have the guy call the cops/ dispatcher and while on the phone explain to them what you are doing and need a LEO
    Possible action 2…
    As you walked towards the guy, she attempts to leave with the child and ignore your comments, as you stand about 90 degrees of her front window as she flips you the finger… do you
    A. Shoot her
    B. Allow her to hit you with her car
    C. Tell the guy to get in your car as you follow her
    These are just some of the things that have crossed my mind. As you all know, it the holiday season and we will see crazy things. Of course in this situation, we don’t know some of the following;
    • Maybe she has full custody of the child
    • Maybe he violated a set of legal agreement established by the courts and she has the legal say so of the visitation, such as, she has full legal and sole custody and he has visitations
    • Maybe they have full joint custody, meaning no one has a final say “so” it must be done as a partnership.
    • Maybe she was really being a bit*h and wanted to hurt him by using the kid against him
    • Or maybe she really was going kidnap the child and move far away so that he cannot find them
    The reason can be endless… but as it was mention in other blogs… if you don’t think about it or prepare for it… well, you all know the rest.
    OK, this is just from my standpoint.

    B,C,D
    It would depend on what was being said and how. If I had time between my car and there's I would probably call the cops and say there is a possible kidnapping and run to assist with the cops still on the line.

    If I had followed C earlier then A
    If I had not then A,C
    I would probably not pull my firearm just because I would rather defuse the situation by all other means neccessary than escalate it, again this is from my standpoint.


    Only A if she attempts to hit you with her car, and I would rather disable the car and not risk hitting the child.
    Never B, if your injured then you won't be able to calm the father down. Plus, I'd rather not be run over with a 1-2 ton vehicle, I hear it can cause serious bodily harm.
    C is a good one if she isn't willing to be erratic while driving. You can follow and give dirrections to the police if they are willing to help.

    And as for the following, this is why it is best to get the cops there as fast as possible.

    Again, this is from my point of view. Everyone else would react differently, that is what makes us humans.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    To the OP:

    When you are not privy to enough of the relative and pertinent facts, you risk making a dangerously faulty decision.

    Heck no you don't shoot anyone or even draw/touch your gun. Deem to "interview" the protagonists? We don't play policeman! At most, you call 911 and be a good witness. There are no threats to life and limb; you don't in fact know whether there is a so called kidnapping - and it isn't hard to record a license number.

    Further, some of your "options" put you in the position of being the aggressor and thereby put your own freedom and RKBA in jeopardy. Learn to understand the statutes and court decisions before you pose to lead others into a discussion about which you obviously know very little.

    If you're going to do a "what-if-scenario" at least know the laws, limitations and legal options applicable in the first place - get the facts, options and risks straight before posting. I have read way too many prior poorly thought out such scenarios and have come to seriously dislike them - they're very trollish.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    Having seen situations like this unfold before, I just mind my own business and move on....Let them and the police/courts sort out their domestic squabble.
    Now, if the man chases after the woman with a gas can and a lighter and proceeds to take her down, dump fuel on her and light her on fire....well, then I might do something. (This example is actually a true story. Not mine, but one I read on a self defense blog. Two armed men actually ended up coming to a womans aid and dispatching the arsonist.)
    It would take something pretty extreme for me to get involved because a lot of situations that explode you don't have enough details or backstory to make a call to get involved. Its my job to protect me and mine, that's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    To the OP:

    When you are not privy to enough of the relative and pertinent facts, you risk making a dangerously faulty decision.

    Heck no you don't shoot anyone or even draw/touch your gun. Deem to "interview" the protagonists? We don't play policeman! At most, you call 911 and be a good witness. There are no threats to life and limb; you don't in fact know whether there is a so called kidnapping - and it isn't hard to record a license number.

    Further, some of your "options" put you in the position of being the aggressor and thereby put your own freedom and RKBA in jeopardy. Learn to understand the statutes and court decisions before you pose to lead others into a discussion about which you obviously know very little.

    If you're going to do a "what-if-scenario" at least know the laws, limitations and legal options applicable in the first place - get the facts, options and risks straight before posting. I have read way too many prior poorly thought out such scenarios and have come to seriously dislike them - they're very trollish.
    This is it ^

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I'll read about it later in the news. Getting involved in a domestic dispute, someone else's dispute, is almost as bad as deciding to vacation at the Chernobyl Campground and Water Park.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Consider what you'd do if you were not armed. There's no reason to bring a firearm into this because if fails the first test of 'in the gravest extreme' of self-defense.

    Get the license plate then find a phone if you MUST insert yourself.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I'll read about it later in the news. Getting involved in a domestic dispute, someone else's dispute, is almost as bad as deciding to vacation at the Chernobyl Campground and Water Park.
    A touch of ironic humor - this is good.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    As a fire-person I am surprised you have not spoken to enough police officers at work to have heard these things, but here you go.

    Cops hate the following:

    1 dealing with drunks
    2 domestic disputes

    number one is because you never know what a drunk is going to do, smart people can get real stupid when drunk.

    Number two is because it is always an emotionally charged event, you have limited access to confirm anything said, and everyone may be lying, if you figure it out and decide to make an arrest, the other party may go ahead and attack you because they only wanted you to scare them.

    My answers to your questions are not really accurate because there is no way to evaluate such a thing from words. Body language, volume, voice inflection etc would all have significant impact on how much danger I felt was possible.

    One thing is for sure, I would NEVER close the distance on them, that changes my risk level significantly.
    Second, I do not tell others how to live as when they tell me how I should live, the response is not polite. This means the entire situation is so far from any of my business in my mind it is not even funny.

    I think what you might indeed find me doing is going on to my car, rolling down my window and listening for escalation while dialing 911, if as presented that did not work and I was POSITIVE police intervention was required, I would tune the Yaesu up and send the call via amateur radio. If possible for me to get plate numbers without being notice I would do so, if not, I might follow the first car at a great distance, but I doubt it. I have no reason to risk myself or my family for the situations others started.

    The reasons are simple, the possibility of projected anger being aimed at anyone in sight (are you enjoying the show) I do not need to escalate it by providing an audience aka target. Be a good witness applies, but it is also optional and I very well might opt out of it completely, they do not need me in the middle of it.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    As there is no immediate threat to life and limb, the only option is to be a good witness. Take down the plate number and phone it in to 911.
    Minds are like parachutes. Just because you lost yours doesn't mean you can borrow mine...

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Take note that the OP is developing a reputation of posting new threads with loosely worded and loosely controlled scenarios with a similar question posed in each, "What would you do?"

    Sincerely hope that he turns a corner, learns to research and becomes familiar with the laws, posts such information as may be useful to others, and reflects his responsibility in a positive manner.

    BTW - I hold our firefighters in the highest regard. They have a dangerous job to perform and many will be very busy over this holiday season risking their lives to protect/save that which others have put at risk.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    To me, it's very poor moderating, besides being unnecessary and intrusive for a Moderator to try to analyze another poster's threads, postings, posting habits, questions, no matter how nicely or "sincerely" done.

    The board members are not stupid and they can decide for themselves if another poster needs to 'mature'. It's not up to the Moderators to insert themselves to try and twist the opinions of the readers.

    A good and responsible Moderator should be like a referee in boxing - ready to do their job if a thread heads towards board code violations, but OTHERWISE to be invisible. AND when they 'fix' or moderate it should be done with a minimum of force to avoid being too restrictive of free speech.

    If a Moderator is going to comment on a thread, they should do it like any other member and post AS a member and not as a MOMMY.

    $.02
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    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    To me, it's very poor moderating, besides being unnecessary and intrusive for a Moderator to try to analyze another poster's threads, postings, posting habits, questions, no matter how nicely or "sincerely" done.


    If a Moderator is going to comment on a thread, they should do it like any other member and post AS a member and not as a MOMMY.

    $.02

    As a hyper critical person whom makes it clear when he see's poor moderation, I would have to offer while I appreciate your position, I fail to see your point within this thread.

    Moderators using their status as a mod to IMPOSE a singular view and a moderator expressing their own thoughts as a free person are dynamically different things. I am not sure the OP has any idea whom might BE a moderator, let alone be overly influenced on their own thoughts or willingness to post said thoughts.

    Frankly, it looks a lot more like for whatever reason you have a bone to pick with a mod from another thread and you are carrying it to this one which is not an expression of strong character at all. If that is the case, I would not blame any moderator for dumping all these comments, including my own for the positive image of the board instead of dragging mud all across several threads.

    My .02 from the cheap seats.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  14. #14
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I made a general comment about what I believe good moderation should be. I think it's clear from the titles in the sidebar who is a moderator. It has an unnecessarily intrusive effect on a thread for a moderator to MODERATE what is not in need of such. I.e., it does not violate board policies.

    Where else should one give an calm and rational opinion on what is felt to be excessive tampering with threads? Why not just comment on the TOPIC if you are a mod and want to give an opinion? Otherwise, it's best to be transparent.

    $.02
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Honestly, thank you all for your post and views. Yes, I am new to this and I spend time reading, etc. In general... what I may preceive what is written may not be how others view... for example, 2nd Admendment. How many times we have heard other saying, "that's an old law, it has no place in today's world..."

    So yes, I am a city employee... I work when people are in their time of need. I'm not a cop nor have a desire to be one.... no offense! Since we are a community of liked minded people, I just wanted to basically have a conversation about a thought I had. If this website was only being used for items that "only happen"... there really wouldn't be that much to read and comment on a daily basis (in my opinion). Its like when us parents send our children to school and we say, "...there's no stuipid questions.... only stuipd people....so ask, I promise you there are about 5 others who have the same question(s)..." Hey, that's how we learn.

    But if that's how the community feels about this, then I will stop and only comment to other post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    As a fire-person I am surprised you have not spoken to enough police officers at work to have heard these things, but here you go.

    Cops hate the following:

    1 dealing with drunks
    2 domestic disputes

    number one is because you never know what a drunk is going to do, smart people can get real stupid when drunk.

    Number two is because it is always an emotionally charged event, you have limited access to confirm anything said, and everyone may be lying, if you figure it out and decide to make an arrest, the other party may go ahead and attack you because they only wanted you to scare them.

    My answers to your questions are not really accurate because there is no way to evaluate such a thing from words. Body language, volume, voice inflection etc would all have significant impact on how much danger I felt was possible.

    One thing is for sure, I would NEVER close the distance on them, that changes my risk level significantly.
    Second, I do not tell others how to live as when they tell me how I should live, the response is not polite. This means the entire situation is so far from any of my business in my mind it is not even funny.

    I think what you might indeed find me doing is going on to my car, rolling down my window and listening for escalation while dialing 911, if as presented that did not work and I was POSITIVE police intervention was required, I would tune the Yaesu up and send the call via amateur radio. If possible for me to get plate numbers without being notice I would do so, if not, I might follow the first car at a great distance, but I doubt it. I have no reason to risk myself or my family for the situations others started.

    The reasons are simple, the possibility of projected anger being aimed at anyone in sight (are you enjoying the show) I do not need to escalate it by providing an audience aka target. Be a good witness applies, but it is also optional and I very well might opt out of it completely, they do not need me in the middle of it.
    In regards to domestic disputes:

    My brother finished his administration of justice degree a number of years ago. As part of his degree, he was required to go on a handful of "ride alongs" with the local PD. He said that of all the calls that they responded to, the one that they made him don a ballistic vest for and wait in the car, was a domestic dispute call. According to the officers that he rode with, the domestic dispute calls were the ones that they dreaded and more often than not ended in violence...
    Minds are like parachutes. Just because you lost yours doesn't mean you can borrow mine...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    To me, it's very poor moderating, besides being unnecessary and intrusive for a Moderator to try to analyze another poster's threads, postings, posting habits, questions, no matter how nicely or "sincerely" done.

    The board members are not stupid and they can decide for themselves if another poster needs to 'mature'. It's not up to the Moderators to insert themselves to try and twist the opinions of the readers.

    A good and responsible Moderator should be like a referee in boxing - ready to do their job if a thread heads towards board code violations, but OTHERWISE to be invisible. AND when they 'fix' or moderate it should be done with a minimum of force to avoid being too restrictive of free speech.

    If a Moderator is going to comment on a thread, they should do it like any other member and post AS a member and not as a MOMMY.

    $.02
    "Try and twist"? Really? I will continue to call 'em as I see 'em and respond accordingly. The goal in this case was obvious in calling for "responsible" research and posting from the gentleman - that is a nudge, not a hammer and I did not indicate to him that I was moderating him. When I change hats, as I am doing here, it is plainly so.

    More to the point of your post - you do not set the standard here on how a moderator functions. Indeed you have on more than one occasion attempted to undermine that function to no avail - that you continue is the shame of it and duly noted. Your "MOMMY" reference is viewed as a personal insult/attack - you might want to avoid such.

    OCDO is not a free speech zone - few need reminding that it is private property and subject to moderation.
    While opinions should be freely given, only after consideration of the content can they be considered for continued inclusion here. In this case the low value of this thread and direction it is now taking has earned a lock.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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