Rummelles Jewler Green Bay (Downtown)

XD40-OD · Dec 14, 2011

Went in to have a ring of the wife's sized

Big sign on the door, no firearms

talked to the manager, he got the owner

She was really really nice

She claims her insurance won't cover if they don't have signage.

She threw me a great question. "Do you carry to protect yourself?" I replied, "No maam, I carry to protect those around me". She said she greatly appreciated that answer.

She would also like more information from any of you seasoned gents that might be able to send info or stop by.

Afraid I lost her card, as I'm moving overseas this week.

Semper Fi

Herr Heckler Koch · Dec 14, 2011

XD40-OD said:
She claims her insurance won't cover if they don't have signage.

That was the big lie told in South Carolina, when they got their Law Abiding Citizens Self-Defense Act of 1996. The state Chamber of Commerce printed up their ghostbusters signs for distribution free of charge to prevent the hypothetical loss of insurance.

SC signs are required to be effective by law to be not less than 8"x11" with specific location requirements at all doors. For premises without doors they are 30"x40".

MKEgal · Dec 14, 2011

Here's their webpage: http://www.rummeles.com/
Web-based contact form: http://www.rummeles.com/contact_form.htm
Owner & manager is Tracy Alpert, who is also a gemologist & the daughter of the company founder.

234 S Adams St.; Green Bay, WI; 54301
920-432-0664
800-832-3219

537 S Nicolet Rd.; Appleton, WI; 54914
920-734-5525
800-398-4966

PDF of Act 35: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/35.pdf
Search page for WI statutes: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/RSB/STATS.HTML

The part she needs to understand & pass on to her insurance company is on pg 13 of the PDF:
175.60 (21) b & c

(21) IMMUNITY.
(b) A person that does not prohibit an individual from carrying a concealed weapon on property that the person owns or occupies is immune from any liability arising from its decision.

(c) An employer that does not prohibit one or more employees from carrying a concealed weapon under sub. (15m) is immune from any liability arising from its decision.

Remember folks - polite calm reasoning & use spellcheck!

ETA: I'd like to get that changed to remove "concealed". I'd also like to get the part about LEO using excessive force changed to remove the reference to a licensee. Just say "if the citizen was in lawful possession of the firearm".

MKEgal · Dec 14, 2011

Here's what I sent. Their web form apparently doesn't allow "return/enter", so it's all one long line. I added breaks here to make it more readable.

I heard from a friend (who was trying to spend money at your store) that you have posted signs turning away lawfully-armed customers.
My friend said he spoke with both the manager & Ms. Alpert, & was told that your insurance company required this new policy.
I find that hard to believe, especially if anyone at that company had actually looked at Wisconsin law, because businesses only have immunity from liability if they do NOT prohibit carry.
The Wisconsin statute they need to be informed about is 175.60 (21) b & c and here's a PDF of Act 35. The bit I referenced is on page 13, right-hand column. https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/35.pdf
From a purely liability-oriented point of view, posting is the worst thing you could do - you lost your immunity AND told criminals that nobody there (or in the parking lot) can fight back.
We look forward to hearing that you've taken down the signs.

Just noticed that a correction didn't 'take'...
I meant to say "here's a PDF you can read & pass on to them. The bit I referenced..."

MKEgal · Dec 14, 2011

got a reply!

From: "Tracy Alpert" <TracyA@RUMMELES.com>
To: <MKEgal>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:24:24 -0600

Yes, I talked to your friend and he was supposed to send the
Information to me. I have not received anything from him to date. I had a pleasant conversation with him and look forward to hearing from him soon.
Have a great holiday season,
Tracy

#####

& I sent back to her:

Thank you for your reply. Seeing that the store closed at 5, I wasn't expecting to hear something until at least tomorrow. I will let my friend know that he is expected to send you this information as well, because he said he misplaced your card.

Included in my original email was a link to a PDF of the new concealed carry law,
with notes about which parts are pertinent to the discussion of immunity from liability.
Apparently those didn't come through correctly.

Here it is again:
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/35.pdf

You want to show your insurance company 175.60 (21) b & c.
Those are on page 13, right-hand column.

"(b) A person that does not prohibit an individual from carrying a concealed weapon on property that the person owns or occupies is immune from any liability arising from its decision.
(c) An employer that does not prohibit one or more employees from carrying a concealed weapon under sub. (15m) is immune from any liability arising from its decision."

You can also wade through the online statutes here:
http://docs.legis.wi.gov/statutes/statutes/175/60

So... ahem... XD40-OD there ya go - her email and everything laid out for you.

Will also PM you.

qball54208 · Dec 15, 2011

Krysta, I just TT Tracy @ Rummelles, she did get your info (she's thankful, VERY thankful) that you sent info, she stated that she's Very busy this time of year and WILL review the info. However, she also had Q's in regards about employee's having weapons, I could not find the info, could you PLZ send to her.
She was VERY thankful that someone actually took the time to call.
Thank you for your help!

rcav8r · Dec 15, 2011

Here's another way to phrase it:

"Have you ever heard of an insurance company that wanted to lose money? Me neither! So by requiring you to post, they are one of two things: A. Ignorant of the immunity portion of the law, or B: Planning not to pay you anyway if you file a claim because you didn't enforce the "no weapons" policy."

MKEgal · Dec 18, 2011

qball54208 said:
she also had Q's in regards about employee's having weapons, I could not find the info, could you PLZ send to her.

It was in what I posted above, and I've emailed it to her twice now:

You want to show your insurance company 175.60 (21) b & c.
Those are on page 13, right-hand column. [of the PDF - K]

"(b) A person that does not prohibit an individual from carrying a concealed weapon on property that the person owns or occupies is immune from any liability arising from its decision.
(c) An employer that does not prohibit one or more employees from carrying a concealed weapon under sub. (15m) is immune from any liability arising from its decision"
http://docs.legis.wi.gov/statutes/statutes/175/60

Section b applies to everyone, and to make it even more clear about employer/employee relationships they added section c as an enhancer. ("Yes, we really meant it.")

Rummelles Jewler Green Bay (Downtown)

XD40-OD

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Herr Heckler Koch

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MKEgal

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MKEgal

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MKEgal

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qball54208

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rcav8r

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