Shoplifting a book 10 years ago, wanting to get a CCW permit in alabama

turkeyshooter · Dec 14, 2011

Its been over 10 years ago now, but I made a stupid decision one night to shoplift a magazine in the mall and got caught. I didnt have the money to get a lawyer at the time, and got charged with level 3 larceny. I think the total amout was less than $15.

Anyway. This is the only trouble I have been in, and it was very very stupid on my fault, but I was 20 at the time and have learned from that costly mistake. Since, I have performed network security work for several state and county governments, international airports, banks, etc. Also have DHS training in counter-terrorism.

I do a lot of target shooting at my neighbors range and goto turkey shoots on the weekends. I went to the local gun shop to buy a 22 pistol and got denied.

I read the law, and it said any type of theft denies my right to a pistol permit.

Is their anything I can do about this? Can I get a lawyer to help?

The guy at the gun shop acted like I can't even have a shotgun in my vehicle going to a turkey shoot??????

Looks like this is going to haunt me forever.

turkeyshooter · Dec 14, 2011

Also.. since I am into turkey shooting, I would like to buy a model 1400 winchester from gunbrokers or another site like that. They require to ship to a FFL.

THere are several locally that could do the transfer.

Since I got denied a pistol permit with my current record, will this also cause problems trying to buy an old shotgun online and having it shipped to a local FFL?

FTG-05 · Dec 15, 2011

Lawyer up. What you got charged with may not be what you are convicted of. Can you find the specific law that you were convicted of?

Good luck.

turkeyshooter · Dec 15, 2011

Talked to a lawyer today. Looks like I was incorrectly charged since the amout was less that 50 dollars. He reccomended going to talk to my local sherrif first and see if he would approve the application since he knows me and I havent been in any trouble since.

Felid`Maximus · Dec 17, 2011

You might want to look into getting expungement or a pardon.

aadvark · Dec 17, 2011

turkeyshooter:

Alabama Code 1975 13A-11-70 Prohibits any Person having been Convicted of a Crime of Violence from Possessing a Handgun.

Funny enough though..., such Law Enumerates Larceny as a 'Crime of Violence'.

Therefore, You are Prohibited from Having a Pistol.

But..., such Law does NOT Apply to or Affect Long Guns.

Therefore, under Alabama Law, You are Prohibited from Having a Handgun, but NOT a Long Gun.

Brimstone Baritone · Dec 18, 2011

Felid`Maximus said:
expungement

I'm pretty sure we don't have those here. I know, weird right? And the Governor has more impotent things to do that pardon a magazine thief.

Daylen · Dec 18, 2011

Brimstone Baritone said:
I'm pretty sure we don't have those here. I know, weird right? And the Governor has more impotent things to do that pardon a magazine thief.

No, but I think getting Relief from Disabilities is possible.

Kirbinator · Dec 19, 2011

Oh, hai, just catching up now.

Unless you're convicted of one of the eight named crimes of violence, you're still allowed to bear a pistol in self-defense.

As far as the sheriff is concerned, it is his discretion.

Anything which is declared as a rifle or a shotgun is legal to carry, however you cannot carry concealed weapons in the state of Alabama. That means anything you carry has to be uncovered. The only weapon allowed to be carried concealed is a pistol, which you have to have a license for.

Potent Dagger · Jan 2, 2012

Dear Turkey shooter,

Another poster referred you to Alabama Statute 13A-11-70 which provides the defintion of a crime of violence. As with many of Alabama firearms laws, the definition of a crime of violence is poorly crafted.

In section 2, the statute reads

"(2) CRIME OF VIOLENCE. Any of the following crimes or an attempt to commit any of them, namely, murder, manslaughter, (except manslaughter arising out of the operation of a vehicle), rape, mayhem, assault with intent to rob, assault with intent to ravish, assault with intent to murder, robbery, burglary, kidnapping and larceny.

In reading the statute, the obvious error in the language is clearly observed in that with the exception of burgulary and larceny, all of the listed offenses require violence or the use of the threat of violence or use of force as an intregal part of the offense. After the use of the term "Mayhem", the statute should have read "uses or threatened the use of violence during the commission of _________________ ( insert your favoite offense). Logically all of these offenses, with the exception of a simple larceny involve the high risk of violence, yet you were not charged with even a felony, but a misdemeanor not involving violence or a threat of violence.

Your primary recourse is to hire an attorney and petition the court for a restoration of your full civil rights, or to obtain a pardon. The least complicated ( though time consuming) of these is to file a petition for the restoration of your rights.

You will need a lawyer to draw up the motion, and it would not hurt to have the local sheriff perfrom a background check to document that you have no other convicitions in Alabama or any other state. You can also get the sheriff to take your fingerprints and then you can submit them to the FBI under the Privacy Act to obtain a copy of your NCIC Criminal History, to confirm that you have no outstanding warrants, are not wanted, nor on probation or parole, and have no criminal history other than the petty larceny from 10 years ago.

Provided that you can show the court that the offense was such a minor offense, and that you have not had any other criminal issues, it is highly likely that the court will grant the motion. Once you get past that hurdle, you should apply with the Instant Check system for a permanate file, and identification number. You will have to jump through some of the same hurdles like the FBI check and finger prints, but they will file your approved petition restoring your civil rights, and give you a ID number to use each time you wish to buy a gun. This will prevent you from having to jump through hoops each time you purchase a gun and get denied.

Here is the link to the Instant check info page on getting the ID number and permanate record filing.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/appeals/nics-appeals-process/appeals-home

As for a pardon, the pardon does not restore all rights and can have exceptions:

• Eligibility: Completion of sentence, or completion of at least three years of
permanent parole, unless the pardon is sought on grounds of innocence.
Ala. Code § 15-22-36(c). Persons convicted of a felony or certain other
offenses involving danger to the person must submit to the taking of a DNA
sample as a mandatory condition of the pardon. Ala. Code § 36-18-25(f).
Board accepts applications from federal offenders and people convicted in
other state jurisdictions residing in the state. See Article 8 of Ala. Board
Rules, Regulations and Procedures, at
http://www.paroles.state.al.us/ALABPP/ALABPP MAIN.htm.
• Effect: A state pardon does not relieve civil and political disabilities “unless
specifically expressed in the pardon.” Ala. Code § 15-22-36(c). See also
Ala. Code 17-3-10. A person who has forfeited his office as a result of
felony conviction is not restored to that office by a pardon. Ala. Code § 36-
9-2. See also Hendrix v. Hunt, 607 So. 2d 1254 (Ala. 1992). Pardon that
restores civil rights also restores handgun privileges. See State ex rel.
Sokira v. Burr, 580 So. 2d 1340 (Ala. 1991). The Board may grant a full
pardon, which restores all rights, or it may grant a pardon with restrictions
(e.g., firearms privileges, sex offender registration, habitual offender status).
Full pardons without restrictions are rarely granted.

I wish you luck, and while it may take some time and effort to accomplish the restoration of your civil rights, it is your only legal recourse absent a change in the Alabama statue defining a crime of violence.

Grapeshot · Jan 2, 2012

It does not appear that the OP was involved in a "crime of violence" so I do not see the relevancy of the above cite.

Kirbinator · Jan 2, 2012

Larceny is defined as a crime of violence in 13A-11-70.

Also, the courts have found that it is proper not to restore rights after a pardon, because a pardon is an admission of guilt.

Grapeshot · Jan 2, 2012

Kirbinator said:
Larceny is defined as a crime of violence in 13A-11-70.

--snip--[/QUOTE]

Appreciate the response - that is a surprise though.

Potent Dagger · Jan 2, 2012

I concur with your observation that shoplifting a magazine is not a "crime of violence" per se.

However if you refer to the definition of what constitutes a crime of violence in the Alabama Criminal Code the crime of larceny ( theft) is included in the offenses listed as a crime of violence, even though the statute defining a crime of violence does not require the actual use or threat of violence during the commission of a larceny.

Likewise, burglary is also listed in the defining statute as a crime of violence, although traditional burglars generally go to extraordinary lengths to avoid any possibility of violent confrontations, and commonly flee rather then become involved in a violent confrontation with a property owner. If the OP was convicted of a simple Burglary, he would also fall under the definition of having committed a "crime of Violence" for the purpose of the statute which prohibits persons convicted of the defined crimes to possess a handgun.

Since the definition statue defines Larceny as a "crime of violence", all larceny (theft offenses) are defined as violent although as in the case of the OP no violence was used or threatened in the offense he committed. Although using violence to commit a larceny makes the offense a felony robbery under Alabama statue even if no weapon is involved. For example in Alabama fighting to resist arrest for shoplifting, by a store security officer, even one in plain clothes, results in a charge of Robbery 3rd degree, which could take the simple misdemeanor larceny charge to a third degree felony.

After the Alabama Statute defining "crimes of violence", there is another statue that says that anyone convicted of a Crime of Violence can not own a pistol. Since the OP was convicted of a charge of larceny, he fits the definition and hence his denial within the Instant Check System, when he tried to buy a handgun.

As I stated, like many of Alabama's preceding gun laws, the wording is poorly crafted. If the statute had said "violence or threat of violence during the commission of any offense" I think it would have more meaning and a much more accurate expression of the legislative intention which was to prohibit handguns to potentially violent criminals. However, while I agree with you that under the circumstances the offense which the OP committed was minor, he still is classified as a violent offender only for the purpose of the Alabama Statue on who may possess a handgun.

If you read a number of the postings about Open Carry in Alabama, you will observe that some wording of the offenses related to carrying of a handgun, and the CCW permit statutes, have been grossly mis-interpreted, due to conflicting terminology and ambiguity. Alabama requires a permit for concealed carry, and carry in a vehicle, but does not require one for open carry.

Back in my days in Law Enforcement, I heard the argument made, by a prosecutor that a holstered gun, was in fact partially concealed by the holster, making a person wearing an open carry holstered gun subject to the law on having to have a permit. An arsine argument to be sure, but I do not know of anyone who wanted to be the test case to see if the argument held water in court. My argument in opposition was that as long as the weapon was recognizable from any distance as being a weapon, holstered or not, it was not concealed, and no permit was required.

For some time, our sheriff had been a stickler for truly concealed carry for permit holders, meaning that no part of the weapon, nor even the outline of the weapon could be visible for the permit holder to be in compliance with the concealed carry law. I was carrying one day with a jacket on and my holster was sticking out from under my jacket, I was pumping gas, and got approached by an off duty sheriff and was lectured about the requirement for my gun to be completely concealed to be in compliance with the permit. I apologized for my indiscretion, pleaded ignorance of the visibility of my holster, thanked the deputy for helping me stay out of trouble, and he let it go at that.

While not entirely in agreement with "open carry" the Sheriff has softened his position with the realization that open carry is not illegal in Alabama, but he does have the authority to pull a pistol permit without any appeal if he deems you to be a "problem", or not acting responsibly when carrying a weapon under a permit he issued.

Grapeshot said:
It does not appear that the OP was involved in a "crime of violence" so I do not see the relevancy of the above cite.

Treborfoot · Jan 4, 2012

While not entirely in agreement with "open carry" the Sheriff has softened his position with the realization that open carry is not illegal in Alabama, but he does have the authority to pull a pistol permit without any appeal if he deems you to be a "problem", or not acting responsibly when carrying a weapon under a permit he issued.

IMHO and most everyone I have spoken with feels that this statue is unconstitutional in Alabama...A sheriff does not make law....May issue allows him to make laws on who gets a permit and who doesn't and as you said "he does have the authority to pull a pistol permit without any appeal if he deems you to be a "problem", or not acting responsibly when carrying a weapon under a permit he issued." That is why the majority of states are Shall issue.

Alabama Constitution

SECTION 43

Separation of powers.
In the government of this state, except in the instances in this Constitution hereinafter expressly directed or permitted, the legislative department shall never exercise the executive and judicial powers, or either of them; the executive (a sheriff is an executive officer) shall never exercise the legislative and judicial powers, or either of them; the judicial shall never exercise the legislative and executive powers, or either of them; to the end that it may be a government of laws and not of men.

Potent Dagger · Jan 7, 2012

At Last something we totally agree on.

While Sheriffs are the issuing authority in Alabama for CCW permits, the fact that there is no appeal from an adverse decision on issue or revocation of a CCW permit is an obvious flaw in the system. I know I would hate to loose my CCW permit for engaging in a totally legal activity like OCing. I am sure that the list is not just limited to OCing, as each sheriff in Alabama may have his own list of activities which he deems to disqualify an applicant.

Now in Mobile, as in the larger metro areas, the Sheriff really is not directly involved in the process of adjudicating the issuance of permits, but he may very well be involved when a problem arises with a permit holder and he must decide if he is going to revoke it.

Personally, I would favor the creation of a State Board of Firearms Permit Examiners with the issuing Agency being at the State Drivers License Office,,,,but then again I favor a simple CCW endorsement on the Drivers License, just like I have an endorsement for Boats.

Treborfoot said:
IMHO and most everyone I have spoken with feels that this statue is unconstitutional in Alabama...A sheriff does not make law....May issue allows him to make laws on who gets a permit and who doesn't and as you said "he does have the authority to pull a pistol permit without any appeal if he deems you to be a "problem", or not acting responsibly when carrying a weapon under a permit he issued." That is why the majority of states are Shall issue.

Alabama Constitution

SECTION 43

Separation of powers.
In the government of this state, except in the instances in this Constitution hereinafter expressly directed or permitted, the legislative department shall never exercise the executive and judicial powers, or either of them; the executive (a sheriff is an executive officer) shall never exercise the legislative and judicial powers, or either of them; the judicial shall never exercise the legislative and executive powers, or either of them; to the end that it may be a government of laws and not of men.

Daylen · Jan 8, 2012

Potent Dagger said:
At Last something we totally agree on.

While Sheriffs are the issuing authority in Alabama for CCW permits, the fact that there is no appeal from an adverse decision on issue or revocation of a CCW permit is an obvious flaw in the system. I know I would hate to loose my CCW permit for engaging in a totally legal activity like OCing. I am sure that the list is not just limited to OCing, as each sheriff in Alabama may have his own list of activities which he deems to disqualify an applicant.

Now in Mobile, as in the larger metro areas, the Sheriff really is not directly involved in the process of adjudicating the issuance of permits, but he may very well be involved when a problem arises with a permit holder and he must decide if he is going to revoke it.

Personally, I would favor the creation of a State Board of Firearms Permit Examiners with the issuing Agency being at the State Drivers License Office,,,,but then again I favor a simple CCW endorsement on the Drivers License, just like I have an endorsement for Boats.

Endorsement on drivers license? To make it really easy for everyone to see that I probably CC? How about constitutional carry, and just do away with the permission slips? As it stands AL has almost the best permit system there is (if we are to have one at all), the only two changes that would be an improvement is a change in the law taking away the need to ask permission to carry a pistol in a vehicle, and change the wording of the law to "shall issue". I like my paper slip and I like information segregation, thank you very much.

Kirbinator · Jan 9, 2012

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1952410041337386469

Check it:

The right to a jury trial in the courts of this state is guaranteed by Ala. Const. art. I, § 11. Section 11 provides in toto: "That the right of trial by jury shall remain inviolate." As we explained in Gilbreath v. Wallace, 292 Ala. 267, 292 So.2d 651 (1974), the "crucial words" found in that section are "`shall remain inviolate.'" The clause "forbid(s) the state through the legislative, judicial, or executive department—one or all—from ever burdening, disturbing, qualifying, or tampering with this right to the prejudice of the people." Id. at 271, 292 So.2d at 655. Section 11 "freezes" the right to trial by jury as that right existed in 1901, the date of the ratification of our present Constitution. Id. at 269, 292 So.2d at 652; see also J. Hoffman, Alabama's Right to Trial by Jury in Civil Cases Since the Merger of Law and Equity—What Has Changed and What Has Not, 32 Ala.L.Rev. 465, 488-89 (1981).

That case contains multiple mentions of inviolate, the definition, and application thereof.

It is not relevant, under a § 11 analysis, that the statute has not entirely abrogated the right to empanel a jury in this type of case. The relevant inquiry is whether the function of the jury has been impaired. Because the right to a jury trial "as it existed at the time the Constitution of 1901 was adopted must continue `inviolate,'" the pertinent question "is not whether [the right] still exists under the statute, but whether it still remains inviolate." Alford v. State ex rel. Attorney General, 170 Ala. 178, 197, 54 So. 213, 218 (1910) (Mayfield, Sayre, and Evans, JJ., dissenting). "For such a right to remain inviolate, it must not diminish over time and must be protected from all assaults to its essential guaranties." Sofie v. Fibreboard Corp., 112 Wash.2d 636, 656, 771 P.2d 711, 722 (1989).

Checkmate.

Potent Dagger · Jan 9, 2012

I fear that if I ask why you seem to have an issue with " it really easy for everyone to see that I probably CC", I am going to get some border line dillusional argument which may include "Men in Black".

Come on Daylen, the government, or at least various parts of government have a "paper work trail" on you from the moment you are born, to the location of the box they put you in when you are buired. That is reality, and it is fantasy to think that it will change in your lifetime or mine.

Just think of it, on your 21st birthday you walk into the DL office to renew your DL. The clerk takes your DL, asks you if the current information is correct, and then tells you to have a seat and they will call you to the next window when your license is ready. About five minutes pass and you are called to the window. The person hands you your new drivers license and says congradulations you also qualify for the CCW endorsement on your DL which we have added to your DL, here is a brochure on your right as an American and as a resident of Alabama regarding your right to carry and the rules for carrying a handgun in this state, and the 22 other states that recognize your CCW rights. This does not mean you have to carry or even own a gun if you do not wish too, but it does allow you to, if and when, the circumstances might arise that you wish to.

This would result in every Alabama Resident who meets the qualifications of having a CCW "permit" having one regardless if they use that right or not.

At this point, you my friend, become just one of over a couple milllion Alabama residents who have the CCW endorsement on your DL......There is anonimity in a crowd, and when the vast majority of Alabamaians have the CCW endrosement on their DL then you become nothing special.

I also think this would increase the use of CCW as a right, as it does not require a seperate effort to get the permit.

Daylen said:
Endorsement on drivers license? To make it really easy for everyone to see that I probably CC? How about constitutional carry, and just do away with the permission slips? As it stands AL has almost the best permit system there is (if we are to have one at all), the only two changes that would be an improvement is a change in the law taking away the need to ask permission to carry a pistol in a vehicle, and change the wording of the law to "shall issue". I like my paper slip and I like information segregation, thank you very much.

Daylen · Jan 9, 2012

Potent Dagger said:
I fear that if I ask why you seem to have an issue with " it really easy for everyone to see that I probably CC", I am going to get some border line dillusional argument which may include "Men in Black".

Come on Daylen, the government, or at least various parts of government have a "paper work trail" on you from the moment you are born, to the location of the box they put you in when you are buired. That is reality, and it is fantasy to think that it will change in your lifetime or mine.

Just think of it, on your 21st birthday you walk into the DL office to renew your DL. The clerk takes your DL, asks you if the current information is correct, and then tells you to have a seat and they will call you to the next window when your license is ready. About five minutes pass and you are called to the window. The person hands you your new drivers license and says congradulations you also qualify for the CCW endorsement on your DL which we have added to your DL, here is a brochure on your right as an American and as a resident of Alabama regarding your right to carry and the rules for carrying a handgun in this state, and the 22 other states that recognize your CCW rights. This does not mean you have to carry or even own a gun if you do not wish too, but it does allow you to, if and when, the circumstances might arise that you wish to.

This would result in every Alabama Resident who meets the qualifications of having a CCW "permit" having one regardless if they use that right or not.

At this point, you my friend, become just one of over a couple milllion Alabama residents who have the CCW endorsement on your DL......There is anonimity in a crowd, and when the vast majority of Alabamaians have the CCW endrosement on their DL then you become nothing special.

I also think this would increase the use of CCW as a right, as it does not require a seperate effort to get the permit.

The feds have more paperwork on me than you think. Its not a matter of how much is known about me, its about how easy it is for that information to be accessed. Also, drivers license endorsement then means I must carry my drivers license when afoot; I have no such desire for that sort of requirement. I like not needing a photo ID on my person at all times. The true way to have anonymity is to have constitutional carry where there is no endorsement needed, nor a requirement for a permission slip or ID or any other silly infringements upon my right to provide for my own defense and privacy.

ON edit: and to alleviate your ignorance of AL law: AL does not have CCW permits, we have concealed pistol license. There is no permit or license for any weapon other than a pistol, nor is the wording even close to "concealed carry weapon" it is "License to carry pistol in vehicle or concealed on person", therefore it is a concealed pistol license.

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