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Thread: Sheriff's department has concealed weapon scenario-based training for traffic stops

  1. #1
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Sheriff's department has concealed weapon scenario-based training for traffic stops

    http://www.thenorthwestern.com/artic...text|FRONTPAGE
    Wrage said officers will ask during a traffic stop or under other circumstances whether the person has a concealed carry permit and if they are carrying a weapon with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wisc. Stats.
    345.23 Officer’s action after arrest without a warrant.
    If a person is arrested without a warrant for the violation of a traffic regulation, the arresting officer shall issue a citation under s.345.11, and in addition:
    (1) May release the person; or
    (2) Shall release the person when he or she:
    (a) Makes a deposit under s. 345.26; or
    (c) Deposits the person’s valid Wisconsin operator’s license with the officer. ...
    (d) Presents a guaranteed arrest bond certificate under s.345.61.
    (3) Shall, if the alleged violator is not released under sub. (1) or (2), ...
    (4) Shall, if the alleged violator is released under sub. (1) or (2), ...
    Wrage said. “People have the right to carry a concealed weapon with a permit. As long as those who carry a permit respect that right ..."
    What irony, a cop requiring that we respect a right that we have wrested away from the gun controllers. Phaugh!
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 12-15-2011 at 07:41 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    Mack said the sheriff’s department’s training helps deputies know exactly how to react during traffic stops when the driver or passengers have a weapon — which they can legally have as long as they have a license to carry it.
    Pretty sure I can now have a weapon in the car even without a license. Well, except in Milwaukee....

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    “We might get called out on an everyday situation, but the new twist is there could be a weapon involved that we normally didn’t have,” Matz said. “Before, we were the only ones who could bring weapons to a scene, but we’ll have to deal with things a little differently now. We typically deal with good people who make poor decisions,and now weapons are added to those poor decisions.”
    Well, he is obviously not someone who follows Wisconsin supreme court decisions. Also, is he saying that carrying weapons is a "poor decision"?

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    "I have nothing illegal in the vehicle."
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    "I have nothing illegal in the vehicle."
    I wouldn't use that specific.

    How do you know?


    Fair-use excerpt from the article:

    We ask that people communicate with us. We’re training our officers in the knowledge that someone will be armed,” he said. “Communication will be the key in circumstances where our officers run across people who are armed. There’s no reason it should turn into a bad situation.”
    It appears they desire to make it SEEM to be a lawful demand, yet they actually use the term "ask." What does statute require when in possession of a concealed or openly carried firearm, with the permit?
    Last edited by wrightme; 12-15-2011 at 10:55 AM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    I wouldn't use that specific.

    How do you know?
    Because I am the only one that is ever in my vehicle.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Because I am the only one that is ever in my vehicle.
    Well, to the best of your knowledge that is the case. Also, you are basically stating that everything in your car IS actually not against a law, whether you are aware of all the laws or not.


    Absolute statements such as you present are dangerous. Something you are unaware of could make that statement appear to be a false statement.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  8. #8
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    It appears they desire to make it SEEM to be a lawful demand, yet they actually use the term "ask." What does statute require when in possession of a concealed or openly carried firearm, with the permit?
    The statutes do not address any demand of a citizen legally and openly armed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wisc.Stats.
    175.60(2g) CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON; POSSESSION AND DISPLAY OF LICENSE DOCUMENT OR AUTHORIZATION.
    [ ... ]
    (c) Unless the licensee or out−of−state licensee is carrying a concealed weapon in a manner described under s.941.23 (2) (e), a licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display his or her license document and photographic identification card and an out−of−state licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display his or her out−of−state license and photographic identification card to a law enforcement officer upon the request of the law enforcement officer while the law
    enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority.
    I believe that it is well established that an enforcer using merely his big-boy voice has effected a seizure, making a "request" effectively a command.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 12-15-2011 at 12:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    The statutes do not address any demand of a citizen legally and openly armed.I believe that it is well established that an enforcer using merely his big-boy voice has effected a seizure, making a "request" effectively a command.
    So, if such firearm is concealed per the permit, the 'request' IS a demand supported by that statute. If it is not concealed, then there is no legal 'demand' possible.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    So, if such firearm is concealed per the permit, the 'request' IS a demand supported by that statute. If it is not concealed, then there is no legal 'demand' possible.
    IIRC, they can demand if you are in a "banned" area for non-CCL holders, like public buildings, within 1000' of a school, a state park, or a class B liquor establishment (though, a nice letter from the manager or owner will also suffice for this).
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    "I am not aware of anything illegal in my vehicle"

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    "I am not aware of anything illegal in my vehicle"
    Now THAT sounds like a decent statement.


    I think I see the danger here, in that the permit might be perceived by LE as an open invitation to search a person for concealed firearms if a person known to have a permit does not declare a firearm. For instance, if oc, and LE asks for permit and declaration of CC, there is not a statutory requirement to either present the permit or to declare, is there?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  13. #13
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    So, if such firearm is concealed per the permit, the 'request' IS a demand supported by that statute. If it is not concealed, then there is no legal 'demand' possible.
    Correct, if such firearm is legally (licensed) concealed then the enforcer has no ceteris paribus PC/RAS to request/demand to interrogate a citizen.

    Further statute law prohibits a officer knowing prima facie a carrier's status. His permissible queries of the database are limited to after the fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisc. Stats.
    175.60(12g) PROVIDING LICENSEE INFORMATION TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES.
    (a) The department shall provide information concerning a specific individual on the
    list maintained under sub. (12) (a) to a law enforcement agency, but only if the law enforcement agency is requesting the information for any of the following purposes:
    1. To confirm that a license or certification card produced by an individual at the request of a law enforcement officer is valid.
    2. If an individual is carrying a concealed weapon and claims to hold a valid license issued under this section or a valid certification card issued under s. 175.49 (3) but does not have his or her license document or certification card, to confirm that an individual holds a valid
    license or certification card.
    3. If the law enforcement agency is a Wisconsin law enforcement agency, to investigate whether an individual submitted an intentionally false statement under sub. (7) (b) or (15) (b) 2.
    (b) 1. Notwithstanding s. 19.35, neither a law enforcement agency nor any of its employees may make information regarding an individual that was obtained from the department under this subsection available to the public except in the context of a prosecution for an offense in which the person’s status as a licensee or holder of a certification card is relevant.
    2. Neither a law enforcement agency nor any of its employees may store or maintain information regarding an individual that was obtained from the department under this subsection based on the individual’s status as a licensee or holder of a certificate card.
    3. Neither a law enforcement agency nor any of its employees may sort or access information regarding vehicle stops, investigations, civil or criminal offenses, or other activities involving the agency based on the status as licensees or holders of certification cards of any individuals involved.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 12-15-2011 at 01:36 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Correct, ff such firearm is legally (licensed) concealed then the enforcer has no ceteris paribus PC/RAS to request/demand to interrogate a citizen.
    An interesting conundrum, but it does not say the same as my statement. I spoke of open carry.

    The conundrum you seem to present is that statute requires a licensee to respond as defined upon 'request' [which is a statutory demand], yet without knowing a licensee IS concealing a firearm, there is no legal standing for LE to make the demand?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  15. #15
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    An interesting conundrum, but it does not say the same as my statement. I spoke of open carry.

    The conundrum you seem to present is that statute requires a licensee to respond as defined upon 'request' [which is a statutory demand], yet without knowing a licensee IS concealing a firearm, there is no legal standing for LE to make the demand?
    Wisconsin statute does not particularly address an openly armed citizen. Weapons are regulated as to prohibited place and purpose and may not be concealed except as permitted.

    It is precisely my point that an enforcer has no standing to make the demand - all things being equal.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    I thought is was S.O.P. for L.E.O. to treat ALL encounters with caution (not to mention BASIC COMMON SENCE) that as in WHOM ever they encounter WHERE ever the encounter takes place, under ANY circumstances the citizen could be armed... But hey, lets single out law abiding carriers simply because they MIGHT be carrying or actuall carrying LEGALLY....

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  17. #17
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    I thought is was S.O.P. for L.E.O. to treat ALL encounters with caution
    My PD made all SOPs publicly accessible. It was the first in the state CALEA accredited. It would be interesting to know which departments in Wisconsin are accredited. Let me see...

    I am waiting for a response to my request for access.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 12-15-2011 at 03:50 PM.

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    Officer friendly, could you please explain to me how my having a CPL, or not, or having a personal carry on my person, or not, have anything to do with this (traffic) stop?

    Actually, I think the problem in WI will be evident until a few police departments have to go to federal court for civil rights violations and pay out some sizable sums before you will see a change in attitudes.

    MKEgal is doing everyone in WI a favor by being a test case. It is in everyones interest that she be supported to the greatest extent possible.

    It is just too bad WI does not? have a law like we have here in WA. Malicious prosecution envokes the law that states, the state loses, the state automatically pays the defenses costs. and It is automatically malicious prosecution if the state loses.

  21. #21
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Beloit PD, Oshkosh PD, UWM Pd and Rock Co. CommCtr CALEA accredited only!

    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    My PD made all SOPs publicly accessible. It was the first in the state CALEA accredited. It would be interesting to know which departments in Wisconsin are accredited. Let me see...

    I am waiting for a response to my request for access.
    I got access and posted

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...dited-agencies

    There are four only agencies in Wisconsin with CALEA accreditation.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    IIRC, they can demand if you are in a "banned" area for non-CCL holders, like public buildings, within 1000' of a school, a state park, or a class B liquor establishment (though, a nice letter from the manager or owner will also suffice for this).
    Do not confuse the requirement to have a Wisconsin CCL or accepted out-of-state license to qualify for certain "priveleges", with the different statutory requirement to display the license. They are NOT the same.

    175.60(2g)(c) as cited earlier is the only statute I know of that spells out when you are required to display your CCL to law enforcement. It only requires it when you are carrying a concealed weapon. And even that has one exception:

    941.23(2)(e) An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies.

    Now, if you want to argue/discuss about "legislative intent" that is a different matter.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 12-20-2011 at 05:57 AM.
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