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Thread: My condo wants to ban open carry. can they? Tucson AZ

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    My condo wants to ban open carry. can they? Tucson AZ

    The president of my condo association says he can ban open carry. My unit is my home so I should have the right to open carry, when I take my trash out and walk my dogs. HOW CAN I STOP THIS what are my rights ? Thanks luluscoot Tucson Arizona

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    Start by reading your association bylaws. You got a copy when you bought the condo; it's a contract that you signed, agreeing to its terms (including how it may be amended).

    No one here can tell you anything about what it says, better than you can read for yourself.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Sorry to burst your bubble, but while your condo unit (inside the 4 walls) is your home, the property outside the 4 walls belongs to the condo association and they can set up rules like no OC, or even no CC. (That would not prevent you from taking your firearms directly off the property and then returning directly to your home.)

    You can either get a majority of the other condo owners to agree with you that this would be a bad move, or get the majority of owners to force a vote to change the rule, or you could move to some place that does not have such a rule, or get out of condos entirely. Just watch out for Homeowners' Associations - they can make the same sort of rule for the common areas.

    On further thought - right now you say the condo association president is the one making noise about banning OC? Does he have support for this right now? Does he have some sort of animosity towards you regarding OC? You might be able to unruffle feathers before he takes formal action.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum.

    I'll take a bit of a stab at this, and you know that not being lawyers in your part of town, a person can only give an opinion.

    1. I'd take a look at the HOA agreement you signed when you joined/bought the condo. It should have some guidelines in there which spell out what you're required to abide by;
    2. If there's nothing specific, (and even if there is) a court probably will not allow any action which would restrict 2A rights without good reason;
    3. I don't think you can be trespassed on your own property, or in your own neighborhood (which I presume you pay to have access to);
    4. The most an elected rep of your condo can do is try to take you to court and get an order. I don't see what kind of order he could get (like a restraining order?) as long as you followed your state's law. With this in mind, I think I'd ask the president to give you a citation under which he expects to sue and what the penalty would be, so you can get prepared to fight it;
    5. If you're worried, get your HOA agreement and go see a lawyer who does that kind of work. You're talking about $500 for him to look at it.

    HTH. (again, no lawyer here)

    PS - don't get into any shouting matches. Remain calm and work with the system. If you can, try to convince him it's a good thing for you to responsibly OC.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 12-15-2011 at 10:57 PM.
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    INAL but I think your best bet would be to argue this from Article 2 Section 26 of the AZ State Constitution which says:

    The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the state shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men.

    It is much broader than the US Constitution. It doesn't just limit the legislature from legislating away your freedoms, it just flat out says you can't be denied your Article 2 rights. In essence, this becomes state civil rights issue. That said, you will probably have to go to court to get this tossed, though I'm guessing you would have a good chance of prevailing.

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahwg View Post
    INAL but I think your best bet would be to argue this from Article 2 Section 26 of the AZ State Constitution which says:

    The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the state shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men.

    It is much broader than the US Constitution. It doesn't just limit the legislature from legislating away your freedoms, it just flat out says you can't be denied your Article 2 rights. In essence, this becomes state civil rights issue. That said, you will probably have to go to court to get this tossed, though I'm guessing you would have a good chance of prevailing.
    What makes you think that is binding on a private property owner?

    This isn't a constitution issue. This isn't a RKBA issue. This is a property rights issue, and he needs to hire a lawyer that understands that.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahwg View Post
    INAL but I think your best bet would be to argue this from Article 2 Section 26 of the AZ State Constitution which says:

    The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the state shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men.

    It is much broader than the US Constitution. It doesn't just limit the legislature from legislating away your freedoms, it just flat out says you can't be denied your Article 2 rights. In essence, this becomes state civil rights issue. That said, you will probably have to go to court to get this tossed, though I'm guessing you would have a good chance of prevailing.
    Brass, the RBKA is a Constitutional issue. Property rights laws are decided by state laws, and the AZ Constitution guides state laws. If it says "The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the state shall not be impaired," then all property laws must stem from that.

    When it comes to property law, courts will hold that a private property owner can choose to deny the rights of others on their property, and if the others disagree, then they're free to leave. Thus, I can deny entry to someone if I don't like the fact they carry.

    The courts also hold that the common areas in both an apartment complex as well as condominiums aren't private property. They're held in an undivided ownership interest by a corporation established at the time of the condominiumís creation. The corporation holds this property in trust on behalf of the homeowners as a group. It does not have ownership itself.

    They, they can't arbitrarily change the rules. They can change or enforce rules, but only within the limits set in the bylaws.

    Can they infringe upon your AZ RKBA as stipulated in the AZ Constitution? On the fact of it, it does not appear they can. Should they attempt to do so, your best bet would be to hire a lawyer to fire back a letter telling them where they can stick it, and if they sue, then countersue for to include damages and legal fees. Meanwhile, make certain you're crossing your t's and dotting your i's, as some folks running a HOA can be a real peace of work. I know mine were when I owned a condo. Fortunately, N.C. property law is very straightforward, and the N.C. bar takes a very dim view of lawyers misrepresenting the law, so when their attorney fired off a letter at me full I lies, I simply forwarded it to the bar association requesting review and possible censure. He was so flagrant he was disbarred for six months, at which the subdued HOA agreed to work with me instead of trying to strong-arm me.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    .... Can they infringe upon your AZ RKBA as stipulated in the AZ Constitution? ....

    The Constitution of the State of Arizona only limits the activity of the government of the State of Arizona. It has no power over the actions of persons or coroprate bodies.

    The best a state can do is pass a law saying that certain acts that are unconstitutional for the government to do are illegal for persons or corporate bodies to do. That, for instance, is why Woolworth's had to desegregate their lunch counters - not because Woolworth's actions were unconstitutional in spite of what anybody else will try to tell you. The law they were breaking is section 204 of Public Law 82-352 (78 Stat. 241), known as the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
    http://www.dotcr.ost.dot.gov/Documents/YCR/CIVILR64.HTM

    If you can find an Arizona law that prohibits a corporate body from violating Article 2 Section 26 of the Arizona State Constitution then you have a cause of action.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Quote Originally Posted by luluscoot View Post
    The president of my condo association says he can ban open carry. My unit is my home so I should have the right to open carry, when I take my trash out and walk my dogs. HOW CAN I STOP THIS what are my rights ? Thanks luluscoot Tucson Arizona
    Contact these people at following link... It's a strong pro gun organization in Arizona. email address and phone ## at bottom of the page:

    http://www.azcdl.org/

    And, good luck.

  10. #10
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    I previously owned a condominium unit in Colorado Springs before I wised up and divested myself of the miserable investment. Condo laws are pretty uniform and I doubt that the President of the HOA can restrict your exercise of a fundamental right - as long as you are not creating a disturbance or nuisance. The fact that he/she may not "like" your exercise of this right doesn't meet the criteria for banning same.

    I did OC at my condo on a fairly regular basis just as you indicate (checking the mail, taking the trash to the dumpster, or walking my dog.) Never had a problem. Unfortunately other residents who may be rights -challenged, or may be intimidated from engaging in disrespect for your safety and right of enjoyment of the common areas ( like allowing their pit bull to run free throughout the condo)may take exception to your demonstrated ability to deter such behavior.

    Maybe you should run for the office of HOA President next election ?

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rushcreek2 View Post
    Maybe you should run for the office of HOA President next election ?
    There you go! If the current HOA pres is so jacked, there are undoubtedly other residents who are fed up with him, too.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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