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When seconds count, the police are only an hour and a half away.

Billy D

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
56
Location
detroit
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/thieves-held-at-gunpoint-in-detroit-get-away-20111215-ms

DETROIT (WJBK) - Marvin Denha says scrap thieves have stripped his family business properties. What wasn't stolen was vandalized in the deli, laundry and collision shops that operated side-by side until six months ago on West Seven Mile at Hershey in Detrioit near the State Fairgrounds. All three businesses were for sale, but scrap thieves robbed them blind.

"I was happy to get both at the same time, but it was scary at the same time because I've got two guys to watch and it may sound funny... but I've got two firearms pointed two different ways," Denha explained.

He has a concealed gun permit. He likes to carry two guns and he pulled them both. One scrap thief laid down. The other hesitated.

"He refused to get on the ground for like about a good five minutes until I showed him that I wasn't playing around. I put the gun directly at him and made him lay down," Denha said.

His cousin called 911 several times. Denha began holding the bad guys at gunpoint at 4:30 p.m.

"I told them you [aren't] going anywhere until the cops come. I'm going to make sure you go to jail," Denha told FOX 2. "I'm dialing 911. I tell them I've got one guy at gunpoint, and the other, the second [I'm] on the phone he books it. So, I'm not going to shoot him in the back."

Police hadn't arrived. Denha heard a noise outside. He thought the bad guys were getting help. His cousin does not have a gun permit.

"I left him alone. I can't give him my firearm," said Denha. "I heard the noise and I got worried about I was getting trapped in [the] building."

"I didn't want [anybody] to come in on us, so I walked out to go cover that," he added."[My cousin] ends up getting hit in the face and the guy books it."

In the end, both thieves got away. Denha and his cousin drove off at 6:00 p.m., which was an hour and a half after their first 911 call.

FOX 2 asked Detroit Police for comment. They said they did respond to the scene, but did not find any trouble. Due to computers being down, they couldn't tell what time they arrived.
 
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Outdoorsman

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
273
Location
Genesee County, Michigan, USA
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/thieves-held-at-gunpoint-in-detroit-get-away-20111215-ms

DETROIT (WJBK) - Marvin Denha says scrap thieves have stripped his family business properties. What wasn't stolen was vandalized in the deli, laundry and collision shops that operated side-by side until six months ago on West Seven Mile at Hershey in Detrioit near the State Fairgrounds. All three businesses were for sale, but scrap thieves robbed them blind.

"They took the heating and cooling. They took the electrical panels. They took the air conditioning unit off the roof. We even bought a new cage for the guy because he's still open at the end and they ripped that cage up and stole the heating and cooling stuff again," said Denha.

He was checking on the properties at 4:30 p.m. Thursday when two guys with tools broke in.

"I was happy to get both at the same time, but it was scary at the same time because I've got two guys to watch and it may sound funny... but I've got two firearms pointed two different ways," Denha explained.

He has a concealed gun permit. He likes to carry two guns and he pulled them both. One scrap thief laid down. The other hesitated.


"He refused to get on the ground for like about a good five minutes until I showed him that I wasn't playing around. I put the gun directly at him and made him lay down," Denha said.

His cousin called 911 several times. Denha began holding the bad guys at gunpoint at 4:30 p.m.

"I told them you [aren't] going anywhere until the cops come. I'm going to make sure you go to jail," Denha told FOX 2. "I'm dialing 911. I tell them I've got one guy at gunpoint, and the other, the second [I'm] on the phone he books it. So, I'm not going to shoot him in the back."

Police hadn't arrived. Denha heard a noise outside. He thought the bad guys were getting help. His cousin does not have a gun permit.

"I left him alone. I can't give him my firearm," said Denha. "I heard the noise and I got worried about I was getting trapped in [the] building."

"I didn't want [anybody] to come in on us, so I walked out to go cover that," he added."[My cousin] ends up getting hit in the face and the guy books it."

In the end, both thieves got away. Denha and his cousin drove off at 6:00 p.m., which was an hour and a half after their first 911 call.

FOX 2 asked Detroit Police for comment. They said they did respond to the scene, but did not find any trouble. Due to computers being down, they couldn't tell what time they arrived.

Un-freaking-believable!
 

PistolPackingMomma

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,884
Location
SC
They said they did respond to the scene, but did not find any trouble. Due to computers being down, they couldn't tell what time they arrived.

Because it's so hard to tell what time it is when you are surrounded by watches, cell phones, car stereos...Unless they were in a 1985 DeLorean, that excuse doesn't fly.
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
Zip ties FTW?
There is no way in hell I'm going to play Mr. Macho citizen cop and get close enough to try to zip tie their hands/feet putting myself in a position where the criminal can wrestle/fight/grab me and/or my gun. Screw that.
 

HKcarrier

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
816
Location
michigan
There is no way in hell I'm going to play Mr. Macho citizen cop and get close enough to try to zip tie their hands/feet putting myself in a position where the criminal can wrestle/fight/grab me and/or my gun. Screw that.



I agree with this... but the article mentions a 2nd 'good guy' who was punched in the face after the other 'good guy' with 2 guns left him unarmed wiht one of the perps.... 2nd gg should have been armed by 1st gg as well as try to restrain the guys with zip ties or duct tape or whatever...


Personally I can't think of any situations where I would EVER detain someone in this manner, or at all... Not that it would be impossible, but I would hope that my 'detainees' (read attacker) were being detained while sporting a few new body modifications...
 
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MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
Once again affirming that the police have no duty to protect anyone not in custody.
I hope the cousin gets a carry permit soon, but question the assumption that it would have been illegal for him to possess the pistol (exigent circumstances, lesser harm, necessity... whatever).
Isn't carry on private property legal in MI, even without a permit?
And since it's a family business, he has even more legal protection.

ETA: You're probably going to get dinged for a "fair use" copyright violation for posting the whole article. Trim it to the salient points & let people use the link to see the rest of it.
 
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Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
He could have carried, or held the gun, but NOT concealed it.

Not in the store or once the owner of the pistols went outside...and not for defensive purposes.

28.422

(12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:

(a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.

(b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.

(c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.

(d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.

It appears that, according to this law, in order for me to run somebody through the basics of pistol handling and safety I must do it at a shooting range.

Bronson
 
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stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Interesting to note, that a juvenile can use a handgun in self defense at their own residence. You're right, but I find it suprising that an adult cant defend him herself without a CPL, (not withstanding the explicit and specific language in Article 1 Section 6), while a child can shoot someone at home.
 

Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
Interesting to note, that a juvenile can use a handgun in self defense at their own residence.

Cite please. In the link to 28.422 posted above juveniles have the same restrictions with the addition that the parent or guardian must be present.

So again no allowing the kids to handle the guns at home in order to teach them function and safe handling; you must be at a shooting range.

Unless, per 28.432, you were to teach them with an antique firearm...what a dumb-ass law.

Bronson
 
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1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
well,,, just wow!!

the OP is soooo full of fail...
I dont want to rag on the guy, but...
it takes 5 minutes to get the second BG to lay down..
when he calls 911 on the fone, the second BG gets up and runs away.
why didnt he shoot that guy when he got up to run away, or attack me?
the OP leaves his friend unprotected with a BG, to check... sounds ....
the last of the BGs get up and attacks his friend and then escapes.

I.. maybe would have shot the BG that didnt want to lay down for 5 minutes.
I.. wouldnt have left my friend unprotected with the other BG to check sounds.

When I put on a gun for defense of myself and others...
I am prepared to shoot bad guys with it!

If you arent ready to shoot bad guys with your gun,,, maybe you shouldnt carry...
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
the OP is soooo full of fail... I dont want to rag on the guy, but... it takes 5 minutes to get the second BG to lay down..

And how would a person who is already holding a bad guy at gun point make him lay down when the bad guy simply refuses to lay down? A bad guy who is NOT attacking but is simply refusing to do take orders is not legal justification to shoot.

when he calls 911 on the fone, the second BG gets up and runs away. why didnt he shoot that guy when he got up to run away, or attack me?

Hmmmm..... since the only legal justification for using deadly force is to stop an immediate threat of death, grave bodily harm, or unwanted sexual penetration.... how would someone running away but not shooting at anyone present a threat of any of those things?


the OP leaves his friend unprotected with a BG, to check... sounds .... the last of the BGs get up and attacks his friend and then escapes.

Without a doubt leaving an unarmed guy to watch a bad guy was, in my opinion, foolish.


I.. maybe would have shot the BG that didnt want to lay down for 5 minutes.

Again.... refusing to obey an order while NOT ATTACKING is not justification for the use of deadly force against anyone... even a bad guy that stopped his attack.

I.. wouldnt have left my friend unprotected with the other BG to check sounds.

Agreed.


When I put on a gun for defense of myself and others... I am prepared to shoot bad guys with it! If you arent ready to shoot bad guys with your gun,,, maybe you shouldnt carry...

I won't judge whether or not someone should, or shouldn't, carry... but I will strongly suggest anyone who carries a gun be damn sure they understand the law, and what is.. and what isn't... a threat.
My responses are in blue above.
 
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MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
The problems with making responses inside a quote are:
1) can't be quoted, must be copied & pasted
2) makes for a blippin' long post

"A bad guy who is NOT attacking but is simply refusing to take orders is not legal justification to shoot."
Ask your friendly (or not-so-friendly, depending on where you are) neighborhood LEA if their employees could shoot (or have shot) someone for refusing to do what they said in a similar situation.

"to stop an immediate threat of death, grave bodily harm, or unwanted sexual penetration"
The last is equal to the second.
Ask anyone who's survived it.

ETA: in some states there are other specific crimes for which shooting is a legal response, most of which are presumed to lead to death or injury, but that doesn't have to be immediately threatened.
 
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Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
B

Bikenut

Guest
The problems with making responses inside a quote are:
1) can't be quoted, must be copied & pasted
2) makes for a blippin' long post

I always considered copy and paste as sometimes a necessary way to respond to a post????

Ask your friendly (or not-so-friendly, depending on where you are) neighborhood LEA if their employees could shoot (or have shot) someone for refusing to do what they said in a similar situation.

The folks involved in the incident under discussion in this thread are not LE and would not enjoy the same legal protections an LEO would. So I'm not sure how that would be relevant?

The last is equal to the second.
Ask anyone who's survived it.

ETA: in some states there are other specific crimes for which shooting is a legal response, most of which are presumed to lead to death or injury, but that doesn't have to be immediately threatened.

I'm well aware that the laws differ from State to State. However the incident under discussion happened in Detroit Michigan.... Hence Michigan law would apply.
Please do not take my response as a snub for anyone who doesn't live in Michigan but please understand that if it happened in Michigan then Michigan law applies.

And I still stand by my earlier statement that applies regardless of which State a person might be in................

-> I will strongly suggest anyone who carries a gun be damn sure they understand the law, and what is.. and what isn't... a threat. <-

Also MKEgal... my best wishes for a favorable outcome in regards to your recent incident with Milwaukee LE.
 
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