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Thread: Push for stronger self-defense law in WA

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    Push for stronger self-defense law in WA

    They're not going to like this at Washington CeaseFire.




    Push on for stronger self-defense law in WA

    Washington State armed citizens are being lobbied to push for adoption of a proposed statute that will strengthen the Evergreen State’s lethal force self-defense law, a measure that was introduced in January and now waits for more co-sponsors.

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...y-force-law-wa

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    Regular Member ghosthunter's Avatar
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    Excellent

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Hypethetical question 1: You are in a park taking a walk and someone is approaching you with their gun drawn, what do you do?

    Hypethetical question 2: You are sitting in your car and someone approaches you with their gun drawn, what do you do?

    Hypethetical question 3: You are sitting on your couch and someone comes through your door with a gun drawn, what do you do?

    Hypethetical question 4: You walk up on 4 people kicking a person on the ground who is defensless, what do you do?
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    Hypethetical question 1: You are in a park taking a walk and someone is approaching you with their gun drawn, what do you do?

    Draw down on them and order them to "STOP I AM ARMED" at that point if they are legit (LE or ??) they will identify themselves. If they continue to approach, or point their weapon in my general direction then I would be forced to defend my self at that point.

    Hypethetical question 2: You are sitting in your car and someone approaches you with their gun drawn, what do you do?

    This one requires more info... But I was sitting parked somewhere I would either try to egress if possible, or face the threat with force.

    Hypethetical question 3: You are sitting on your couch and someone comes through your door with a gun drawn, what do you do?

    Draw and fire... Someone coming though my door with a weapon has just entered my residence AND is armed, I have a reasonable fear that my life is in jeopardy. If it is the police, they SHOULD have identified themselves BEFORE coming through the door (In a perfect world that is). If it is LE and they didn't announce, then obviously I am not going to make it though the encounter.

    Hypethetical question 4: You walk up on 4 people kicking a person on the ground who is defensless, what do you do?

    4 on 1 would be a case for lethal force. There is no question that 4 people could cause the death of someone. It depends on the situation, but if I reasonably believe that the persons life is in jeopardy I would draw, maybe announce and fire.
    Those are my first reaction, but there are a TON of unknowns to these that would change the outcome of the situation.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Hypethetical question 1: You are in a park taking a walk and someone is approaching you with their gun drawn, what do you do?

    Draw down on them and order them to "STOP I AM ARMED" at that point if they are legit (LE or ??) they will identify themselves. If they continue to approach, or point their weapon in my general direction then I would be forced to defend my self at that point.
    That's a good way to get yourself killed. If someone's already got the drop on you, drawing on them is only going to cause their trigger finger to get twitchy.

    If it's a cop, they don't plan on killing you, and drawing on them is not a good idea. If it's not a cop, and they wanted you dead, they would have done it before you saw them coming. Best thing to do is let the cop do their business, or let the BG get in closer so you can take control of their weapon. Drawing, aiming, and firing on BG takes A LOT longer than the BG's trigger finger takes to go a fraction of an inch to the rear.

    My only caveat to this is that if the person that's drawn on you is a BG and and you think they're going to try and kill you anyway, and not give you a chance to put the odds in your favor (why a BG would draw and not fire if they planned to do so anyway is beyond me), then by all means, hope that their bullet is less deadly than yours, because I'd say 9/10 times their gun is going off before you get a sight picture.

    But if it's me, and I'm at a tactical disadvantage and not getting fire upon yet, I'm going to wait until I can take control/take the tactical advantage before I take a shot.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Variables here could be limitless.... that said

    Hypethetical question 1: You are in a park taking a walk and someone is approaching you with their gun drawn, what do you do?

    I would go for cover. I can reevaluate from behind a rock or tree.

    Hypethetical question 2: You are sitting in your car and someone approaches you with their gun drawn, what do you do?

    My Sweet Baboo just partook in this episode.....I would , again head for cover, reevaluate

    Hypethetical question 3: You are sitting on your couch and someone comes through your door with a gun drawn, what do you do?

    Draw and fire... fight my way to the shotgun

    Hypethetical question 4: You walk up on 4 people kicking a person on the ground who is defensless, what do you do?

    announce and fire.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    <snip>
    Hypethetical question 4: You walk up on 4 people kicking a person on the ground who is defensless, what do you do?

    announce and fire.
    And the four just captured an armed robber/rapist and are kicking him to subdue him? How do you know what is going on? Announce...maybe. Fire? Not enough information.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    Hypethetical question 1: You are in a park taking a walk and someone is approaching you with their gun drawn, what do you do?

    Hypethetical question 2: You are sitting in your car and someone approaches you with their gun drawn, what do you do?

    Hypethetical question 3: You are sitting on your couch and someone comes through your door with a gun drawn, what do you do?

    Hypethetical question 4: You walk up on 4 people kicking a person on the ground who is defensless, what do you do?

    O boy, here we go with the vague hypothetical scenarios again.

    Answer to all four: I do whats necessary to survive while doing what I can to limit risk to the innocent.

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    Back on main reason for thread - support new legislation

    Dave's super article concerns getting support for the WA Senate Bill 5418. This would improve on what is solidly legal in WA law when someone DOES come crashing into your home or car. Please contact your legislators and ask them to co-sponsor this much-needed bill.

    The answers I'd like to see w.r.t. the "what if's" would be the an explanation of the legal responses according to current WA laws.

    I agree there is not enough information in any of them to make a detailed response, other than to the home invasion. If you feel that you or anyone else in your house are in immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm, draw, aim, fire until threat is gone, call 911.

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    That's a good way to get yourself killed. If someone's already got the drop on you, drawing on them is only going to cause their trigger finger to get twitchy.

    If it's a cop, they don't plan on killing you, and drawing on them is not a good idea. If it's not a cop, and they wanted you dead, they would have done it before you saw them coming. Best thing to do is let the cop do their business, or let the BG get in closer so you can take control of their weapon. Drawing, aiming, and firing on BG takes A LOT longer than the BG's trigger finger takes to go a fraction of an inch to the rear.

    My only caveat to this is that if the person that's drawn on you is a BG and and you think they're going to try and kill you anyway, and not give you a chance to put the odds in your favor (why a BG would draw and not fire if they planned to do so anyway is beyond me), then by all means, hope that their bullet is less deadly than yours, because I'd say 9/10 times their gun is going off before you get a sight picture.

    But if it's me, and I'm at a tactical disadvantage and not getting fire upon yet, I'm going to wait until I can take control/take the tactical advantage before I take a shot.
    Again, there is a LOT of variables here that you are reading into it and projecting onto my answer there, no where in there does it say that he is pointing a gun at you or even holding it in a threatening manner, just that he is walking towards you with a gun drawn... But that is what I would do in the situation presented. What each of us does is based on our own comfort level and training. I would appreciate not being told that my methodology is wrong or going to get me killed because you might do it differently.

    That said...

    I was actually presented with a situation similar to this once in a parking lot of a rest stop. He wasn't armed, but was a guy that wasn't too friendly and was walking at me. I told him to stop, I was armed and hit him with a flashlight. When he didn't stop I told him I was armed, that is when he decided what ever he was thinking wasn't worth it and turned around and left the area.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Now that I got everybody thinking about what you would do in relationship to dave's article on a push for stronger self defense laws in Washington, I think we also need a ruling on being able to defend against LEO's that use their badge to exhort unnecessary force. Didnt Oregon just pass such a law in the last couple years?

    Now change a few things and see how you would handle it.

    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    Hypethetical question 1: You are in a park taking a walk and a LEO is approaching you with their gun drawn, what do you do?

    Hypethetical question 2: You are sitting in your car and a LEO approaches you with their gun drawn, what do you do?

    Hypethetical question 3: You are sitting on your couch and a LEO comes through your door with a gun drawn, what do you do?

    Hypethetical question 4: You walk up on 4 LEO's kicking a person on the ground who is defensless, what do you do?
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
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    Hi folks. I came accross this case, State v. Brightman, a couple of years ago in conjuction with some legal research on a case I was working on. The more I studied it, the more I realized that it basically gutted our right to believe anyone breaking into our home was by defination, a deadly threat. I will have a legal analysis on this case (and what lead up to the ruling) pretty soon. But, what is necessary now, if for hundreds, if not thousands of legally armed WA citizens to contact their State Senator and ask if they would sign on to the bill as a co-sponsor. With enough co-sponsors, it will get some new media attention, and with that attention, it will get a hearing. Please don't put off contacting your State Senator. Together we can help strengthen our right to use deadly force in self-defense here in WA.

    Marty Hayes, President
    The Firearms Academy of Seattle, Inc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    Now that I got everybody thinking about what you would do in relationship to dave's article on a push for stronger self defense laws in Washington, I think we also need a ruling on being able to defend against LEO's that use their badge to exhort unnecessary force. Didnt Oregon just pass such a law in the last couple years?
    .
    Brady:

    Can you start a different thread, and not hi-jack this one? Thank-you

    Marty

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    Wording of SB 5814

    SENATE BILL 5418

    State of Washington 62nd Legislature 2011 Regular Session

    By Senators Becker, Benton, Stevens, Sheldon, Schoesler, Delvin, Morton, and Honeyford

    Read first time 01/25/11. Referred to Committee on Judiciary.

    AN ACT Relating to the use of force in self-defense; amending RCW 9A.16.020 and 9A.16.050; and adding new sections to chapter 9A.16 RCW.

    BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON: Sec. 1. RCW 9A.16.020 and 1986 c 149 s 2 are each amended to read as follows:

    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

    (1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;


    (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary or is permitted pursuant to RCW 9A.16.050;

    4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

    5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;

    (6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.

    Sec. 2. RCW 9A.16.050 and 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 s 9A.16.050 are each amended to read as follows:

    (1) Homicide is also justifiable when committed ((either)):

    (((1)))

    (a) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished;

    ((or (2)))


    (b) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling,((or)) residence, other place of abode, or occupied vehicle in which he or she is;

    (c) In the event the slayer had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself, herself, or another person in a dwelling, residence, other place of abode, or occupied vehicle.

    (2) Under subsection (1) of this section, a person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

    NEW SECTION. Sec. 3. A new section is added to chapter 9A.16 RCW to read as follows:

    (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another person when using deadly force pursuant to RCW 9A.16.050(1)(c) if:

    (a) The person against whom the deadly force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering or had unlawfully and forcibly entered a dwelling, residence, other place of abode, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from a dwelling, residence, other place of abode, or occupied vehicle; and

    b) The person who uses deadly force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

    (2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) of this section does not apply if:

    (a) The person against whom the deadly force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, other place of abode, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person;

    (b) The person sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the deadly force is used;

    (c) The person who uses deadly force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, other place of abode, or vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or

    (d) The person against whom the deadly force is used is a general or limited authority Washington peace officer, as defined in RCW 35 10.93.020, who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, other place of abode, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identifies himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

    (3) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person's dwelling, residence, other place of abode, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

    (4) As used in this section:

    (a) "Dwelling" means any building or structure, including any attached porch, though moveable or temporary, or a portion thereof, which is used or ordinarily used by a person for lodging.

    (b) "Residence" means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.

    14 NEW SECTION. Sec. 4. A new section is added to chapter 9A.16 RCW to read as follows:

    (1) A person who uses force as permitted in RCW 9A.16.020 or 9A.16.050, is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force and from civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used was a general or limited authority

    Washington peace officer, as defined in RCW 10.93.020, who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identifies himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

    (2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1) of this section, but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

    (3) The court shall award reasonable attorneys' fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1) of this section.

    --- END ---

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    [QUOTE=amzbrady;1669142]Now that I got everybody thinking about what you would do in relationship to dave's article on a push for stronger self defense laws in Washington, I think we also need a ruling on being able to defend against LEO's that use their badge to exhort unnecessary force. Didnt Oregon just pass such a law in the last couple years?

    I think it's a fantastic idea to consider the "what if's" of LEO scenarios. I haven't been active here on the forums for a while so this story is new for you all - I was involved in a car v car incident, I called and waited for LEO to arrive. KPD arrives and I'm standing behind my car OC talking to a witness, and the officer gets out of his vehicle draws his pistol/tazer (alert to the dirt) and expressed his opinion of me being OC. His partner didn't mind it when he showed up, going as far as to compliment my girl and show me new apps on his cell phone (nice to know our tax money also pays for product reviews and live demonstrations, ya?).
    I do a lot of thought process stuff throughout my daily life, particularly when I'm out and about with my Bride to be and her son - threat analysis, being mindful of our '6', where are the doors, considering what tools I currently have to handle various situations that could arise . . . I'm usually at a loss when LEO is plugged into those equations. Anyone else have a similar experience of being drawn on? What's the least 'escalating' way of not backing down when drawn on for OC?

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    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    Marty and Dave,
    Thanks for bringing this to my/our attention. I will get letters sent off to my Senator.

    It is unfortunate to have to wade through so many off topic posts to find the on topic posts, but
    that is the way it goes on here at times it seems.

    Thanks again.
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