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Bellingham police draw down on Open Carrier

ccwinstructor

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Yuma, Arizona, USA
It could be a good followup to contact the department and compliment the Sargent

Episode two (not recorded)

I was walking my dogs this morning at Bloedel Donovan Park. The local gang bangers had tagged the three main buildings and I stopped to talk to the guy that runs the place (wayne). I offered to help pait it over, but he had to wait for the LEOs to take photos.
I walked on and was down by the water when the PD arrived. As I passed the building I motioned to wayne that his LEOs had arrived.
I continued our walk and saw another LEO coming around my side of the building. So I called to him and directed him to were the others were inspecting the tag. He was speaking with someone on his radio on and off. Conversation was light until he said "Are you carrying a fire arm?" I replied "yes, yes I am, aren't you?" "guns aren't allowed in the Park.".......... "I think you are wrong"......
Now it starts. No, I did not record. No, I don't carry a recorder. No, I am not going to argue about recorders.
He tells me "officer safety" because I am getting louder. Now his weapon comes out. I ask him what I am doing illegally. He tells me that I cannot get loud with him because I am armed. I say that I always get louder when confronted with stupid. "Got any ID?" I tried to explain the actual law to him (he did not want to hear that from me) so I gave him a brochure. He would not look at it (officer safety again) and kept his eyes on me at all times. I repeatedly asked him to "Put the pistol in the holster". He put it away, but kept drawing over and over every time I moved.
The Park manager (wayne) and his boss heard us arguing and came over to see what was going on. He mediated a bit and told the LEO that I was a regular in the park, I was an OC advocate well versed in the law, and that it was legal to carry there. The officer eased up and reviewed the brochure. Things got better after that. I apologized for calling him "stupid" about the law, and he apologized for being "stupid" about the law. He admitted that his misunderstanding of OC law will give him the opportunity to break out the training bulliten and review it again.
The Sergeant he called showed up and We told him evrythig was good and they redirected to graffiti and I continued to walk dogs

I think this worked out to be a training opportunity. The officer involved came away with a better understanding of the law and what appeared to be a better attitude to OCers

You already taught a lesson to the officer that did not know the law. Now you could reinforce the point by writting a letter to the department complimenting the Sargent on knowing the law and acting appropriately. Police officers get lots of complaints and learn to ignore them. Write a letter complimenting one of them and it is likely to get talked about all over the department. An alternative would be a letter to the editor in the local paper doing the same thing. Letters complimenting police are rare, so there would be a good chance of it getting published.

Positive reinforcement for positive actions can work very well.
 

fire suppressor

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Kitsap County
My first reaction is wow I can't believe that happened after that department lost that law suit last year that is a department who dose not learn from their mistakes. My only constructive criticism is I do not think I would have personally called him stupid. I'm not trying to say you did something wrong or slam you but I have found in my experience when dealing with police even if they are in the wrong like they are here it still benefits you to keep a respectfully attitude towards them. Could this be our first documented case of a incident adverted by a pamphlet?
 

skiingislife725

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Lake Stevens, WA
My first reaction is wow I can't believe that happened after that department lost that law suit last year that is a department who dose not learn from their mistakes. My only constructive criticism is I do not think I would have personally called him stupid. I'm not trying to say you did something wrong or slam you but I have found in my experience when dealing with police even if they are in the wrong like they are here it still benefits you to keep a respectfully attitude towards them. Could this be our first documented case of a incident adverted by a pamphlet?

Sounded more like incident averted by another citizen coming in and talking the cop down. I'm hoping this guy is just a transplant and not a regular...one lawsuit in the past year isn't enough?
 

MSG Laigaie

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Philipsburg, Montana
I see this as a way to get them to publish a training bulletin on Open Carry.
Done...... with the help of SVG when he had his incident. As a matter of fact the OI and I discussed the one Bellingham uses.

"Citizen said
Quote Originally Posted by Batousaii View Post
SNIP The officer pointed a loaded weapon at a legal citizen who posed no threat

I don't see that in the OP. The thread title certainly gives that impression, but the OPer's incident report does not indicate the cop's gun was pointed at the OCer. If the cop did actually point the weapon at the OCer then its game-on for a full formal complaint for assault. "

Well, yes he did point the weapon at my chest on several separate occasions. And no, I am not going to drag this guy thru the mud just because I can. He learned something. I was never in harms way, even when he had his weapon out of his holster. Trust me on this one. I do not believe this LEO will have a problem with OC in the future. "game-on for a full formal complaint for assault. " is not warranted in this case and would create more heat than it would alleviate.

EDIT: Almost forgot. I do not care if you are a LEO, a priest, or the POTUS. If you draw a weapon and wave it around (brandishing) I will refer to the act and the person performing it STUPID. As in "Put the weapon away, you're acting stupid" or"Stop sweeping me, you're being stupid". and those may have been actual quotes. I was insistant on this and I may have verbally intimidated the officer.
Sorry it took so long to respond, I watch football on Monday nites. Go Geelong!!
 
Last edited:

skiingislife725

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Lake Stevens, WA
That'd be interesting to see a copy of. The last time I talked to Rob about it, it was still in the works but he hadn't seen anything about it yet. I'm assuming they finally got around to it?
 

amlevin

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Feb 16, 2007
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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
He tells me that I cannot get loud with him because I am armed. I say that I always get louder when confronted with stupid.

But everyone knows you aren't supposed to raise your voice when trying to reason with a challenged individual. You're supposed to talk to them in calm and soothing tones. Probably even more important when you're both armed. ;)
 

XD45PlusP

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, ,
[/QUOTE]Well, yes he did point the weapon at my chest on several separate occasions. And no, I am not going to drag this guy thru the mud just because I can. He learned something. I was never in harms way, even when he had his weapon out of his holster. Trust me on this one. I do not believe this LEO will have a problem with OC in the future. "game-on for a full formal complaint for assault. " is not warranted in this case and would create more heat than it would alleviate.[/QUOTE]

Are you for real? You might be dead right now because of this IDIOT but you think, that he learned something and it doesn't "Warrant" you filing a formal complaint? Several separate occasions, means being shot several times in the chest=bad news for you.

One wrong move by you and we might be reading your obituary or hearing about you on the news. Frankly I'm shocked by your lack of being in total outrage. Seems a little too passive to me, but at the time, you called him stupid?

But now that you've had the chance to rationally think about it, it's a he learned something attitude?

Don't jive with me........

XD
 

Baked on Grease

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Are you for real? You might be dead right now because of this IDIOT but you think, that he learned something and it doesn't "Warrant" you filing a formal complaint? Several separate occasions, means being shot several times in the chest=bad news for you.

One wrong move by you and we might be reading your obituary or hearing about you on the news. Frankly I'm shocked by your lack of being in total outrage. Seems a little too passive to me, but at the time, you called him stupid?

But now that you've had the chance to rationally think about it, it's a he learned something attitude?

Don't jive with me........

XD




What ever happened to "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

Thing I have a hard time with, is how is is legal for a cop to draw and point his firearm at us and we cant do anything but stand there and hope not to get shot. If the Tables were turned we would be arrested. This needs to change. They should have no right to endanger our live by pointing a loaded firearm at us. I wonder if you could do a citizens arrest for him brandishing a firearm?

I have been thinking along these lines more recently myself. I don't see anything in the brandishing laws that exempt LEO. You better believe that if I have a firearm pointed at me there will be hell to pay.

I'll have to look around and see if anyinea tried this..


Sent using tapatalk
 

slapmonkay

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For me, if an officer even draws his firearm out of its holster (not even at me, say low ready) I am filing a complaint. He should have known better, if he didn't than that's too bad for him as he still drew the firearm on a non-threatening legal citizen breaking no laws which should be tracked in a record in case he does it again.

God forbid the officer was not following common firearm safety and had his finger in the trigger guard and tripped on a rock while he was walking towards you... You never know. When someone aims a firearm at someone that's serious stuff and should be documented in my opinion. Don't aim a firearm at anything you don't want to destroy...

I am glad you say he learned from it but did he really learn from it? What happens if he does it again, to you or someone else and plays the same oh I didn't know game? You don't need to feel bad about writing a complaint, he won't get fired. What it will do is keep a record of how many times he has done it.
 

slapmonkay

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I have been thinking along these lines more recently myself. I don't see anything in the brandishing laws that exempt LEO. You better believe that if I have a firearm pointed at me there will be hell to pay.

I'll have to look around and see if anyinea tried this..
You could probably at least get him for misconduct however it would have to be proven and pursued.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=42.20.080

RCW 42.20.080 said:
Every officer or other person mentioned in RCW 42.20.070, who shall wilfully disobey any provision of law regulating his official conduct in cases other than those specified in said section, shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor.
 

Jayd1981

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Richland, Washington, USA
Are you for real? You might be dead right now because of this IDIOT but you think, that he learned something and it doesn't "Warrant" you filing a formal complaint? Several separate occasions, means being shot several times in the chest=bad news for you.

One wrong move by you and we might be reading your obituary or hearing about you on the news. Frankly I'm shocked by your lack of being in total outrage. Seems a little too passive to me, but at the time, you called him stupid?

But now that you've had the chance to rationally think about it, it's a he learned something attitude?

Don't jive with me........

XD

I'm not disagreeing with your view at all. In fact I would support anyone filing an official complaint for having a gun drawn on them by a LEO when they are doing nothing wrong. But this is the OP's case and therefore the OP's decision. In other words, its his monkey, let him f*** it however he wants. The most we can do is lend support when needed.
 

Difdi

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Seattle, Washington, USA
What ever happened to "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

Thing I have a hard time with, is how is is legal for a cop to draw and point his firearm at us and we cant do anything but stand there and hope not to get shot. If the Tables were turned we would be arrested. This needs to change. They should have no right to endanger our live by pointing a loaded firearm at us. I wonder if you could do a citizens arrest for him brandishing a firearm?

If you feel that strongly, if you ever find yourself in such a situation (or witness it happening to someone else), place the officer under citizen's arrest. Brandishing is a misdemeanor, and threat of violence breaches the peace. Note that you cannot legally forcibly disarm the arrested officer unless he attempts to resist arrest with a weapon, but there is nothing in the law that shields him from the arrest itself.
 

amzbrady

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Marysville, Washington, USA
If you feel that strongly, if you ever find yourself in such a situation (or witness it happening to someone else), place the officer under citizen's arrest. Brandishing is a misdemeanor, and threat of violence breaches the peace. Note that you cannot legally forcibly disarm the arrested officer unless he attempts to resist arrest with a weapon, but there is nothing in the law that shields him from the arrest itself.

If indeed you are correct that this can be done. It should be done more often. If citizens started arresting officers for their actions, their actions would change very fast.
 

gogodawgs

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If you feel that strongly, if you ever find yourself in such a situation (or witness it happening to someone else), place the officer under citizen's arrest. Brandishing is a misdemeanor, and threat of violence breaches the peace. Note that you cannot legally forcibly disarm the arrested officer unless he attempts to resist arrest with a weapon, but there is nothing in the law that shields him from the arrest itself.

Can you cite in the RCW where the term brandishing exists and that it is a misdemeanor?

(5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

LINK
 

1245A Defender

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well,,,

Can you cite in the RCW where the term brandishing exists and that it is a misdemeanor?

(5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

LINK

the cute term "brandishing" has no place in the RCW's, but the action described by that cute term is covered in 9.41.270....
violating that RCW is a gross misdemeaner.
 

SpyderTattoo

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If any of us had handled our weapons like this officer did, we'd be screwed. If anything, I'd think you had a right to defend yourself against a person that unlawfully threatened you with a firearm... Think about that. If someone else, not in uniform, came at you and drew his weapon when you were minding your own business, how would you react?
 

Grapeshot

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If any of us had handled our weapons like this officer did, we'd be screwed. If anything, I'd think you had a right to defend yourself against a person that unlawfully threatened you with a firearm... Think about that. If someone else, not in uniform, came at you and drew his weapon when you were minding your own business, how would you react?

Indeed think about such as this long and hard. Is the street the place to contest such happenings? Is drawing on a LEO even a remotely good idea in .000000001% of the time?

I do not see that things have degenerated to that level and further find that direction of conversation not in keeping with the philosophy of OCDO.
 

Citizen

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SNIP Well, yes he did point the weapon at my chest on several separate occasions. And no, I am not going to drag this guy thru the mud just because I can. He learned something. I was never in harms way, even when he had his weapon out of his holster. Trust me on this one. I do not believe this LEO will have a problem with OC in the future. "game-on for a full formal complaint for assault. " is not warranted in this case and would create more heat than it would alleviate.

I disagree. Here's why.

Pointing a gun at someone is serious business. Its one thing to unholster and hold it at low ready, but to point it at you "on several separate occasions" while arguing the legality of OC is something else entirely.

First, lets say you have not laid out the facts in sufficient detail from a 4th Amendment and officer safety point of view. So, all I have to work with is your OP and the clarification about the gun being pointed at you. Working with that, and assuming you have no significant omissions of fact, one thing jumps out at me:

The cop was pointing a gun at you while you were making no threat, and while he was not in the process of seizing and cuffing you, nor removing the gun for officer safety. Something doesn't add up here in the cop's behavior. Any cop who actually thought you were a threat would have had you proned out and cuffed, not point and unpoint and point again his gun. But, lets say he was giving you the benefit of the doubt and not proning you out and cuffing you at the outset. Then why the gun pointing? If this is all true, this cop definitely needs to learn the difference between low-ready and pointing a gun at a holstered gun.

He was quick to recognize his error of law and apologized. This is beyond great. Its wonderful, splendid, superlative!! But, that does not mitigate or change at all the seeming gun handling failures. These really need to be addressed. Before somebody gets killed.
 

gogodawgs

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I disagree. Here's why.

Pointing a gun at someone is serious business. Its one thing to unholster and hold it at low ready, but to point it at you "on several separate occasions" while arguing the legality of OC is something else entirely.

First, lets say you have not laid out the facts in sufficient detail from a 4th Amendment and officer safety point of view. So, all I have to work with is your OP and the clarification about the gun being pointed at you. Working with that, and assuming you have no significant omissions of fact, one thing jumps out at me:

The cop was pointing a gun at you while you were making no threat, and while he was not in the process of seizing and cuffing you, nor removing the gun for officer safety. Something doesn't add up here in the cop's behavior. Any cop who actually thought you were a threat would have had you proned out and cuffed, not point and unpoint and point again his gun. But, lets say he was giving you the benefit of the doubt and not proning you out and cuffing you at the outset. Then why the gun pointing? If this is all true, this cop definitely needs to learn the difference between low-ready and pointing a gun at a holstered gun.

He was quick to recognize his error of law and apologized. This is beyond great. Its wonderful, splendid, superlative!! But, that does not mitigate or change at all the seeming gun handling failures. These really need to be addressed. Before somebody gets killed.


My question. Did the officer point a gun at you? Or did the officer keep the gun at low and ready?

If the officer kept the gun at low and ready, I would also not pursue further action.

If the officer pointed a gun at me, I would have an attorney pursue further action.
 
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