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Thread: Bellingham police draw down on Open Carrier

  1. #26
    Regular Member skiingislife725's Avatar
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    That'd be interesting to see a copy of. The last time I talked to Rob about it, it was still in the works but he hadn't seen anything about it yet. I'm assuming they finally got around to it?

  2. #27
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    He tells me that I cannot get loud with him because I am armed. I say that I always get louder when confronted with stupid.
    But everyone knows you aren't supposed to raise your voice when trying to reason with a challenged individual. You're supposed to talk to them in calm and soothing tones. Probably even more important when you're both armed.
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  3. #28
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    [/QUOTE]Well, yes he did point the weapon at my chest on several separate occasions. And no, I am not going to drag this guy thru the mud just because I can. He learned something. I was never in harms way, even when he had his weapon out of his holster. Trust me on this one. I do not believe this LEO will have a problem with OC in the future. "game-on for a full formal complaint for assault. " is not warranted in this case and would create more heat than it would alleviate.[/QUOTE]

    Are you for real? You might be dead right now because of this IDIOT but you think, that he learned something and it doesn't "Warrant" you filing a formal complaint? Several separate occasions, means being shot several times in the chest=bad news for you.

    One wrong move by you and we might be reading your obituary or hearing about you on the news. Frankly I'm shocked by your lack of being in total outrage. Seems a little too passive to me, but at the time, you called him stupid?

    But now that you've had the chance to rationally think about it, it's a he learned something attitude?

    Don't jive with me........

    XD

  4. #29
    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=XD45PlusP;1669769]

    Are you for real? You might be dead right now because of this IDIOT but you think, that he learned something and it doesn't "Warrant" you filing a formal complaint? Several separate occasions, means being shot several times in the chest=bad news for you.

    One wrong move by you and we might be reading your obituary or hearing about you on the news. Frankly I'm shocked by your lack of being in total outrage. Seems a little too passive to me, but at the time, you called him stupid?

    But now that you've had the chance to rationally think about it, it's a he learned something attitude?

    Don't jive with me........

    XD



    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    What ever happened to "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

    Thing I have a hard time with, is how is is legal for a cop to draw and point his firearm at us and we cant do anything but stand there and hope not to get shot. If the Tables were turned we would be arrested. This needs to change. They should have no right to endanger our live by pointing a loaded firearm at us. I wonder if you could do a citizens arrest for him brandishing a firearm?
    I have been thinking along these lines more recently myself. I don't see anything in the brandishing laws that exempt LEO. You better believe that if I have a firearm pointed at me there will be hell to pay.

    I'll have to look around and see if anyinea tried this..


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  5. #30
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    For me, if an officer even draws his firearm out of its holster (not even at me, say low ready) I am filing a complaint. He should have known better, if he didn't than that's too bad for him as he still drew the firearm on a non-threatening legal citizen breaking no laws which should be tracked in a record in case he does it again.

    God forbid the officer was not following common firearm safety and had his finger in the trigger guard and tripped on a rock while he was walking towards you... You never know. When someone aims a firearm at someone that's serious stuff and should be documented in my opinion. Don't aim a firearm at anything you don't want to destroy...

    I am glad you say he learned from it but did he really learn from it? What happens if he does it again, to you or someone else and plays the same oh I didn't know game? You don't need to feel bad about writing a complaint, he won't get fired. What it will do is keep a record of how many times he has done it.
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  6. #31
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    I have been thinking along these lines more recently myself. I don't see anything in the brandishing laws that exempt LEO. You better believe that if I have a firearm pointed at me there will be hell to pay.

    I'll have to look around and see if anyinea tried this..
    You could probably at least get him for misconduct however it would have to be proven and pursued.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=42.20.080

    Quote Originally Posted by RCW 42.20.080
    Every officer or other person mentioned in RCW 42.20.070, who shall wilfully disobey any provision of law regulating his official conduct in cases other than those specified in said section, shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD45PlusP View Post
    Are you for real? You might be dead right now because of this IDIOT but you think, that he learned something and it doesn't "Warrant" you filing a formal complaint? Several separate occasions, means being shot several times in the chest=bad news for you.

    One wrong move by you and we might be reading your obituary or hearing about you on the news. Frankly I'm shocked by your lack of being in total outrage. Seems a little too passive to me, but at the time, you called him stupid?

    But now that you've had the chance to rationally think about it, it's a he learned something attitude?

    Don't jive with me........

    XD
    I'm not disagreeing with your view at all. In fact I would support anyone filing an official complaint for having a gun drawn on them by a LEO when they are doing nothing wrong. But this is the OP's case and therefore the OP's decision. In other words, its his monkey, let him f*** it however he wants. The most we can do is lend support when needed.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    What ever happened to "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

    Thing I have a hard time with, is how is is legal for a cop to draw and point his firearm at us and we cant do anything but stand there and hope not to get shot. If the Tables were turned we would be arrested. This needs to change. They should have no right to endanger our live by pointing a loaded firearm at us. I wonder if you could do a citizens arrest for him brandishing a firearm?
    If you feel that strongly, if you ever find yourself in such a situation (or witness it happening to someone else), place the officer under citizen's arrest. Brandishing is a misdemeanor, and threat of violence breaches the peace. Note that you cannot legally forcibly disarm the arrested officer unless he attempts to resist arrest with a weapon, but there is nothing in the law that shields him from the arrest itself.

  9. #34
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    If you feel that strongly, if you ever find yourself in such a situation (or witness it happening to someone else), place the officer under citizen's arrest. Brandishing is a misdemeanor, and threat of violence breaches the peace. Note that you cannot legally forcibly disarm the arrested officer unless he attempts to resist arrest with a weapon, but there is nothing in the law that shields him from the arrest itself.
    If indeed you are correct that this can be done. It should be done more often. If citizens started arresting officers for their actions, their actions would change very fast.
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  10. #35
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    If you feel that strongly, if you ever find yourself in such a situation (or witness it happening to someone else), place the officer under citizen's arrest. Brandishing is a misdemeanor, and threat of violence breaches the peace. Note that you cannot legally forcibly disarm the arrested officer unless he attempts to resist arrest with a weapon, but there is nothing in the law that shields him from the arrest itself.
    Can you cite in the RCW where the term brandishing exists and that it is a misdemeanor?

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

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  11. #36
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Can you cite in the RCW where the term brandishing exists and that it is a misdemeanor?

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    LINK
    the cute term "brandishing" has no place in the RCW's, but the action described by that cute term is covered in 9.41.270....
    violating that RCW is a gross misdemeaner.
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  12. #37
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    If any of us had handled our weapons like this officer did, we'd be screwed. If anything, I'd think you had a right to defend yourself against a person that unlawfully threatened you with a firearm... Think about that. If someone else, not in uniform, came at you and drew his weapon when you were minding your own business, how would you react?
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    If any of us had handled our weapons like this officer did, we'd be screwed. If anything, I'd think you had a right to defend yourself against a person that unlawfully threatened you with a firearm... Think about that. If someone else, not in uniform, came at you and drew his weapon when you were minding your own business, how would you react?
    Indeed think about such as this long and hard. Is the street the place to contest such happenings? Is drawing on a LEO even a remotely good idea in .000000001% of the time?

    I do not see that things have degenerated to that level and further find that direction of conversation not in keeping with the philosophy of OCDO.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    SNIP Well, yes he did point the weapon at my chest on several separate occasions. And no, I am not going to drag this guy thru the mud just because I can. He learned something. I was never in harms way, even when he had his weapon out of his holster. Trust me on this one. I do not believe this LEO will have a problem with OC in the future. "game-on for a full formal complaint for assault. " is not warranted in this case and would create more heat than it would alleviate.
    I disagree. Here's why.

    Pointing a gun at someone is serious business. Its one thing to unholster and hold it at low ready, but to point it at you "on several separate occasions" while arguing the legality of OC is something else entirely.

    First, lets say you have not laid out the facts in sufficient detail from a 4th Amendment and officer safety point of view. So, all I have to work with is your OP and the clarification about the gun being pointed at you. Working with that, and assuming you have no significant omissions of fact, one thing jumps out at me:

    The cop was pointing a gun at you while you were making no threat, and while he was not in the process of seizing and cuffing you, nor removing the gun for officer safety. Something doesn't add up here in the cop's behavior. Any cop who actually thought you were a threat would have had you proned out and cuffed, not point and unpoint and point again his gun. But, lets say he was giving you the benefit of the doubt and not proning you out and cuffing you at the outset. Then why the gun pointing? If this is all true, this cop definitely needs to learn the difference between low-ready and pointing a gun at a holstered gun.

    He was quick to recognize his error of law and apologized. This is beyond great. Its wonderful, splendid, superlative!! But, that does not mitigate or change at all the seeming gun handling failures. These really need to be addressed. Before somebody gets killed.

  15. #40
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I disagree. Here's why.

    Pointing a gun at someone is serious business. Its one thing to unholster and hold it at low ready, but to point it at you "on several separate occasions" while arguing the legality of OC is something else entirely.

    First, lets say you have not laid out the facts in sufficient detail from a 4th Amendment and officer safety point of view. So, all I have to work with is your OP and the clarification about the gun being pointed at you. Working with that, and assuming you have no significant omissions of fact, one thing jumps out at me:

    The cop was pointing a gun at you while you were making no threat, and while he was not in the process of seizing and cuffing you, nor removing the gun for officer safety. Something doesn't add up here in the cop's behavior. Any cop who actually thought you were a threat would have had you proned out and cuffed, not point and unpoint and point again his gun. But, lets say he was giving you the benefit of the doubt and not proning you out and cuffing you at the outset. Then why the gun pointing? If this is all true, this cop definitely needs to learn the difference between low-ready and pointing a gun at a holstered gun.

    He was quick to recognize his error of law and apologized. This is beyond great. Its wonderful, splendid, superlative!! But, that does not mitigate or change at all the seeming gun handling failures. These really need to be addressed. Before somebody gets killed.

    My question. Did the officer point a gun at you? Or did the officer keep the gun at low and ready?

    If the officer kept the gun at low and ready, I would also not pursue further action.

    If the officer pointed a gun at me, I would have an attorney pursue further action.
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  16. #41
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    My question. Did the officer point a gun at you? Or did the officer keep the gun at low and ready?

    If the officer kept the gun at low and ready, I would also not pursue further action.

    If the officer pointed a gun at me, I would have an attorney pursue further action.
    We should be able to go low ready if we feel threatened, as long as we dont point our firearm at someone, it should all be ok.
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    We should be able to go low ready if we feel threatened, as long as we dont point our firearm at someone, it should all be ok.
    I think feel threatened is a little too subjective. Lets keep it at an objective justification. Can't have it slopping over into police using a feel threatened excuse.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    My question. Did the officer point a gun at you? Or did the officer keep the gun at low and ready?

    If the officer kept the gun at low and ready, I would also not pursue further action.

    If the officer pointed a gun at me, I would have an attorney pursue further action.

    He clarified it a few posts up. The cop pointed the gun at him several times during the encounter.

  19. #44
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    He clarified it a few posts up. The cop pointed the gun at him several times during the encounter.
    I am asking again for clarity. Is there embellishment to the story? His attitude towards holding the officer accountable demonstrates embellishment.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    I am asking again for clarity. Is there embellishment to the story? His attitude towards holding the officer accountable demonstrates embellishment.
    The thought occurred to me, too; but, I've learned it serves little purpose to hint or accuse such without strong evidence. No sense making an accusation or implying if it can backfire. Too little potential gain for too much potential damage. Also, some mighty strange things have turned out to be true.

    So, generally, I just carry on as though the report was true. It tends to sort out in the end. And, nobody is mad at me. At least not for that.

    If somebody comes along with a too self-aggrandizing story, or the story has lots of elements that don't check with experience, I might hint at disbelief or something. Otherwise, I generally keep that particular suspicion to myself.
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-20-2011 at 11:18 PM.

  21. #46
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    We should be able to go low ready if we feel threatened, as long as we dont point our firearm at someone, it should all be ok.
    I strongly disagree with this. Unless in use, (or going to the bathroom) my weapon stays in the holster. If I draw my weapon I will use it. Draw to fire, NOT intimidate. If you are in a position to go "low ready" maybe vacating the area would be better.

    Because this is not over yet, a few minor things have been held in check.
    Yes, the OI drew at "low ready", Yes he pointed his weapon directly at me on several occasions. NO, I was not in danger of being shot for reasons that may be released later.

    I am going in to see the BPD today to request the incident report. I have requested BPD to produce their Training Bulletin and records of training.
    I am trying to find out what was done the last time this happened to SuddenValleyGunner. If the training was shelved, the OI has an excuse (a weak one) that Management fell down on the job. If I can verify this, I can direct action where it belongs.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    I am asking again for clarity. Is there embellishment to the story? His attitude towards holding the officer accountable demonstrates embellishment.
    I have met MSG in person and don't put him as one to embellish a story. I trust what he says is only factual. I do think there is some more facts that could come out to help understand the interaction more.
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  23. #48
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    I have met MSG in person and don't put him as one to embellish a story. I trust what he says is only factual. I do think there is some more facts that could come out to help understand the interaction more.
    I totally understand, I only ask because of the disconnect between the nature of the contact, the actions of the officer and the approach of MSG. It is these types of incidents, as rare as they are, that need to be followed through to effect change. When this type of disconnect occurs with a member on this board, what has been discovered in the past is a bit of an embellishment. There is nothing in MSG's past posts to infer that type of embellishment and he has been a member to meet in person, thus I suspect he is correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    If you feel that strongly, if you ever find yourself in such a situation (or witness it happening to someone else), place the officer under citizen's arrest. Brandishing is a misdemeanor, and threat of violence breaches the peace. Note that you cannot legally forcibly disarm the arrested officer unless he attempts to resist arrest with a weapon, but there is nothing in the law that shields him from the arrest itself.
    Actually, it could be a 2nd or 3rd Degree Assault, which are serious Felonies.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.36.021
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.36.031

    Or at the very least, Reckless Endangerment, a Gross Misdemeanor.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.36.050

    Along with RCW 9.41.270

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270

    XD

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I strongly disagree with this. Unless in use, (or going to the bathroom) my weapon stays in the holster. If I draw my weapon I will use it. Draw to fire, NOT intimidate. If you are in a position to go "low ready" maybe vacating the area would be better.
    I agree a gun should not be drawn to intimidate. But, I suspect the whole draw-only-to-fire policy is based on a teaching maxim designed to reinforce not using the gun to intimidate. That and maybe some similarity or derivative of Bushido where the samurai is only allowed to draw his sword if he's going to use it on someone.

    Teaching people with short-tempers to only draw to fire is OK. But, not everybody is going to draw to intimidate. The maxim is over-broad.

    I agree that vacating the area is better--if it is an option! Back to the wall, multiple potential attackers in close proximity, an attacker too close to turn your back and run, in your own home clearing the house after hearing a breaking window. Lots of legitimate reasons for low or high ready.

    The point is to have the gun out already instead of dying while trying to draw. This is why police have low-ready. Simply because there are circumstances where the added time of having to draw may make you too late on the trigger, keeping in mind that multiple shots may be necessary, the whole 21-ft business, and so forth that makes time even more important.

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