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Thread: Scenario: What would you do?

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    Scenario: What would you do?

    About a year ago, a buddy of mine was standing in line at a Walmart McDonalds here in the Valley while OCing. A group of young 'gangbanger wannabes' were behind him in line, and at some point, one of them tugged on his pistol and stated, "Nice gun, let me see it." According to my buddy, it didn't seem like the guy who tugged on his pistol was actually trying to unholster it, but was really just "pushing buttons" if you will, trying to see my friend's response. Anyway, my friend turned around, placed his hand on his weapon, and had gave them some verbal Hell. The "gangbanger wannabes" laughed about it, and said they wouldn't touch his pistol again. He kept his guard up, ordered, and ate his meal there without further incident.

    So, what would you have done in this situation? Do you think my friend did the right thing? How far would you have taken this?

  2. #2
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    I would, hopefully, have enough situational awareness to prevent such an incident from ever happening in the first place.
    Last edited by PistolPackingMomma; 12-19-2011 at 05:16 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    In most states (all?) this would constitute assault and battery.

    That type of thing would never be considered a jest/joke, especially when involving a deadly weapon.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InspctrClouseau View Post
    About a year ago, a buddy of mine was standing in line at a Walmart McDonalds here in the Valley while OCing. A group of young 'gangbanger wannabes' were behind him in line, and at some point, one of them tugged on his pistol and stated, "Nice gun, let me see it." According to my buddy, it didn't seem like the guy who tugged on his pistol was actually trying to unholster it, but was really just "pushing buttons" if you will, trying to see my friend's response. Anyway, my friend turned around, placed his hand on his weapon, and had gave them some verbal Hell. The "gangbanger wannabes" laughed about it, and said they wouldn't touch his pistol again. He kept his guard up, ordered, and ate his meal there without further incident.

    So, what would you have done in this situation? Do you think my friend did the right thing? How far would you have taken this?
    Do you know what type of retention holster your buddy had? (if any at all)
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    Do you know what type of retention holster your buddy had? (if any at all)
    Not 100% sure, but I've always seen him OC with the BlackHawk SERPA CQC holster, so I'd have to assume that's what he was using during the incident.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    First, agree, SA not up to par. Turn strong side away from anyone in line, don't let people get within grabbing distances. BUT...as it happened:

    GangBangerWannaBe tugs at pistol

    Buddy: 'What is your name?'
    GBWB: 'Billy Bob'
    Buddy: 'Well Billy Bob, did you just tug at my pistol?'
    GBWB: 'Yeah, let me see it'
    Buddy: 'Did you know I got you on tape admitting to a crime?'
    GBWB: 'Oops, just kidding, man'.

    Buddy watches them leave, gets license plate, calls into PD with name and plate number and says he'd like to file assault charges, he's got it on audio tape the guy admitting it'.

    Reason #422 to always run a recorder when OC-ing.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Sadly, this incident illustrates WHY many people do not OC. Those who choose to OC had better be prepared to discourage such behavior through their "attitude", posture, demeanor, and body language.

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    I am justified in taking any reasonable DEFENSIVE ACTION necessary to retain control of my holstered weapon. That includes the USE OF THAT WEAPON if necessary. I would suggest that a statement to that effect directed at the clown would be in order.
    Last edited by rushcreek2; 12-19-2011 at 06:55 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rushcreek2 View Post
    I am justified in taking any reasonable DEFENSIVE ACTION necessary to retain control of my holstered weapon. That includes the USE OF THAT WEAPON if necessary. I would suggest that a statement to that effect directed at the clown would be in order.
    That is VERY inadvisable. If the 'clown' has friends nearby (according to the story) they will hear you threatening them UNARMED kids. All they have to do is embellish a little and you end up losing (loosing in OCDO parlance) your pistol permit and probably get your firearm confiscated. After all these are just kids "horsing around".

    So, prevention, recording, SA are the key elements. Don't let people get within reach of your strong side to begin with.

    HTH
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Regular Member Malcolm's Avatar
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    Interesting scenario

    I like the points brought up. Audio Recorder (Sad in this world that it would be/almost necessary). And to always remain professional and smart. The idea of using the McDonald's surveillance as evidence to a crime. Unfortunately, some people are raised/born with no common sense or respect. I fully agree with pressing charges against those individuals. Besides, touching another mans gun like that is pretty demeaning. I love my gun and no one touches it without my permission. Like my guitars (Someone touching something expensive and important without your permission. See if they get invited over again). It sucks that happened.

    My answer, It's hard to say how a person can respond to such ignorance.

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    Wow, this sounds similar to an incident that happened to me a couple years ago in Everett, WA. I like the responses so far -- get a recorder, get a retention holster and/or retention training, and be prepared to encounter loonies like this. Knowing what I know now, I would face my assailant but keep the weapon strong side away from him/them and be ready to inflict negative feedback if needed, ask if they just attempted to seize my weapon and get it on tape if possible, move away from them and call 911. Somebody has a real death wish for trying to "push buttons" or otherwise trying to take somebody's weapon. Any LEO would have that person on the pavement or worse if somebody tried to touch, let alone try to take their weapon.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InspctrClouseau View Post
    Anyway, my friend turned around, placed his hand on his weapon, and had gave them some verbal Hell.
    Once your friend put his hand on the gun and started giving the kids a verbal lashing, he put himself in the position of being the bad guy and escalating the situation. He's lucky no one called the cops.

    We (AzCDL) got Arizona law changed to allow for "defensive display" which would include placing your hand on a holstered firearm, as a response to a threat, which in this case is "iffy" and would probably wind up being determined in a court room at great expense.

    Fred

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Once your friend put his hand on the gun and started giving the kids a verbal lashing, he put himself in the position of being the bad guy and escalating the situation. He's lucky no one called the cops.

    We (AzCDL) got Arizona law changed to allow for "defensive display" which would include placing your hand on a holstered firearm, as a response to a threat, which in this case is "iffy" and would probably wind up being determined in a court room at great expense.

    Fred
    This is sad and unfortunate, because in this case putting his hand on the gun was more of a 'retention', anti-grab measure, but could be construed as a defensive display or brandish. I think the key thing is to realize that 'saying' anything is only going to make your actions indefensible. If you are not going to take the necessary steps to insure retention and safe carrying (recorder going, SA, not going stupid places OR leaving stupid places), then IMO one should not be OC-ing. You should be prepared to LEAVE the area if you get that 'vibe' and I bet he got it and ignored it.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    If you are not going to take the necessary steps to insure retention and safe carrying (recorder going, SA, not going stupid places OR leaving stupid places), then IMO one should not be OC-ing. You should be prepared to LEAVE the area if you get that 'vibe' and I bet he got it and ignored it.
    Wait, what?

    If someone doesn't have a recorder going at all times they shouldn't be open carrying?

    I could see it being a good idea in someplace where OC had a high chance of precipitating police encounters, but it would never even occur to me here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Once your friend put his hand on the gun and started giving the kids a verbal lashing, he put himself in the position of being the bad guy and escalating the situation. He's lucky no one called the cops.

    We (AzCDL) got Arizona law changed to allow for "defensive display" which would include placing your hand on a holstered firearm, as a response to a threat, which in this case is "iffy" and would probably wind up being determined in a court room at great expense.

    Fred
    From what he told me, he put his hand on his pistol to reinforce retention, not for an intimidation factor or anything like that. I agree with what you're saying, though, because all it takes is one California-transplant to see it and freak out. Next thing you know, Phoenix PD will have the place surrounded...

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    Just to be clear...
    I should have clarified in my original post, but I did not; the instigators were not kids or young teenagers. From his description, there were four of them, they were in their early to mid 20's, and dressed in the "gangster wannabe" fashion, that is, sideway baseball caps, jeans hanging down to their knees, etc. Just wanted to clear that up in case anyone thought I was referring to literal kids, as in 12 year olds.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    It's nice to know that there are places where the chances of encountering the cops is slight, regardless of the circumstances an OCer might find themself in. Although I do wonder why the cops would not show up after you shot someone in self defense, or finished whatever kata/ballet you practice should you encounter someone trying to grab your handgun.

    But for those of us who live in places where the cops are likely to show up, and probably be less than friendly when they arrive, having both the means to memorialize the encounter and to make documentary reference to the events the necessitated the cops' attendance at the scene, is comforting. Most of the time I end the day by deleting hours of traffic noises, the programs on the car radio, and brief contacts with folks who exchange coffee for money, or groceries for money. Every once in a while there was some exchange that I want to save, so it all goes on the computer hard drive and I edit out everything else. Full erases take less than a minute to wipe out, while saving and editing may take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour or so. If I believe there is a reason to save the data the time to save and edit it is, to me, worth it.

    I can't say for sure, as each situation has certain differences that require some adjustment to my response, but unless I am in custodial arrest I consider any attempt to touch, let alone remove, my handgun to be an assault that places me in iminent jeopardy of death or serious bodily injury. I'll be doing something to mitigate that threat, be it a verbal warning or something ending with me in Full Sabrina posture.

    http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108205

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    Quote Originally Posted by InspctrClouseau View Post
    About a year ago, a buddy of mine was standing in line at a Walmart McDonalds here in the Valley while OCing. A group of young 'gangbanger wannabes' were behind him in line, and at some point, one of them tugged on his pistol and stated, "Nice gun, let me see it." According to my buddy, it didn't seem like the guy who tugged on his pistol was actually trying to unholster it, but was really just "pushing buttons" if you will, trying to see my friend's response. Anyway, my friend turned around, placed his hand on his weapon, and had gave them some verbal Hell. The "gangbanger wannabes" laughed about it, and said they wouldn't touch his pistol again. He kept his guard up, ordered, and ate his meal there without further incident.

    So, what would you have done in this situation? Do you think my friend did the right thing? How far would you have taken this?
    I highlighted the point of failure.


    SA failure of monumental proportions. The hand of another person should never have gotten near enough to tug on the pistol.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Permit? What's that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    That is VERY inadvisable. If the 'clown' has friends nearby (according to the story) they will hear you threatening them UNARMED kids. All they have to do is embellish a little and you end up losing (loosing in OCDO parlance) your pistol permit and probably get your firearm confiscated. After all these are just kids "horsing around".

    So, prevention, recording, SA are the key elements. Don't let people get within reach of your strong side to begin with.

    HTH

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    Permit? What's that?
    Badger Johnson evidently has a "need a permit to carry" mentality -- hence must be from a relatively "non-free" state. It's too bad that many people seem to think that OC requires a "permit".

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV View Post
    Badger Johnson evidently has a "need a permit to carry" mentality -- hence must be from a relatively "non-free" state. It's too bad that many people seem to think that OC requires a "permit".
    Badger is aware that no permit is required to OC in Va. He doesn't actively engage in the practice (personal reasons he says) and can come across more than a little negative regarding different scenarios and OC.

    While this site is primarily about open carry, it is pointedly about supporting/defending the choice to do so. There is no mandate that one must OC or for that matter carry at all. Does doing so add to one's credibility/image - I think so.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Badger is aware that no permit is required to OC in Va. He doesn't actively engage in the practice (personal reasons he says) and can come across more than a little negative regarding different scenarios and OC.

    While this site is primarily about open carry, it is pointedly about supporting/defending the choice to do so. There is no mandate that one must OC or for that matter carry at all. Does doing so add to one's credibility/image - I think so.
    And that's what's great about this site. Don't have to hear the argument about whether OC or CC is better and all the flame wars you'll see on other gun forums.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    Permit? What's that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV View Post
    Badger Johnson evidently has a "need a permit to carry" mentality -- hence must be from a relatively "non-free" state. It's too bad that many people seem to think that OC requires a "permit".
    My comment wasn't meant to be a personal attack. Just a snarky one. It was off topic and should have been ignored.

    Last edited by sharkey; 12-24-2011 at 06:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    My comment wasn't meant to be a personal attack. Just a snarky one. It was off topic and should have been ignored.

    I kinda figured as much, but I was kind of cranky that evening. Apologies all around. Merry Christmas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InspctrClouseau View Post
    Just to be clear...
    I should have clarified in my original post, but I did not; the instigators were not kids or young teenagers. From his description, there were four of them, they were in their early to mid 20's, and dressed in the "gangster wannabe" fashion, that is, sideway baseball caps, jeans hanging down to their knees, etc. Just wanted to clear that up in case anyone thought I was referring to literal kids, as in 12 year olds.
    In my experience, they're not wannabe gangsters if they're in their mid 20's, they are gangsters! good choice in holster, and being mindful of the situation...I would have filed a police report on those punks.

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