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Thread: Men who openly carried guns at Culver's accept settlement - Madison.com

  1. #51
    Founder's Club Member springfield 1911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    Did you have that plate of crow that you had to eat plain or with sauce, salt and pepper?
    Davegran is a stand up guy , He did what madison refused to admit, And ! gave an apology.

    Dave you can send me the crow, I'll cook it and feed it to my cats.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJQ34JTqk0I

    In the ashes burns an ember of liberty, We are the fuel to ignite the ember into a flame of liberty.

    The embodiment of our founding fathers will not be found in one man , But in Many.

    ****** give it away ( Our rights ) prostitutes sell it (Mandated training).

  2. #52
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Looks like the totality of circumstances add up poorly for MPD. Kudos to everyone involved, gun rights in this state are stronger because of your efforts.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

  3. #53
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    Missing the Point

    Everybody is getting caught up on the word "judgment" when that is really not at the core of what people are disagreeing about. Paul F. is correct in that whether through a trial or an offer, a "judgment" results. But this "judgement" really does have the characteristics of a "settlement." Saying that a judgment resulted is as significant as saying that in either case a "judge" is involved. So what? What differs - and this is important - is the finding of facts. Without a trial, there is no true finding; the only "facts" we have is what is contained in the offer of judgment (which we haven't seen -- have we?) There is no moral determination as to right/wrong. If there had been a trial and the Culver 5 prevailed, one could say that the Madison PD was wrong, that they made a mistake, etc. Here, unless MPD was stupid enough to put such language in their offer, we don't have this. There was an offer to avoid trial. The $10K was offered and accepted. If a trial had been held any liability would have been determined by the jury and/or judge. It might have been $10K, it might have been $100K. The judge could have ordered other relief. We cannot know what would have happened. As confirmed by the spokesman, this offer and acceptance will have no impact on the behavior of MPD. If such offers (invariably $10,000 for some reason or so it seems) could change behavior there would be no need for more than the first one in Wisconsin. Now Act 35 may (or may not) change police policy and action but that is a separate issue. Anyway, Act 35 cannot help if the defendants can always get away with a cash buyout. So we can cheer until the next incident occurs. It may not be Madison but some other burg that rousts citizens and then says oops, sorry - here is ten grand to split after the lawyers and costs are paid. I don't fault those who accepted the settlement, err offer. If it was in their best interest to do so, it is not for others to complain. But we can lament that, once again, we don't have a definitive court ruling to provide guidance.

  4. #54
    Regular Member thieltech's Avatar
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    i was reading comments on another site and some one said the Madsion Police Department paided off the lawyers , to get them to drop the case .
    Last edited by thieltech; 12-22-2011 at 11:59 AM.

  5. #55
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieltech View Post
    i was reading comments on another site and some one said the Madsion Police Department paided off the lawyers , to get them to drop the case .
    Well.... that would be libel. Our lawyer is John Monroe, who is one of the preeminent 2A lawyers in the country. I am not sure if he is exclusively 2A but I know he knows his stuff.

    Of course he gets his fee. He doesn't work for free.

    Here is the order approving the judgement: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19481227/Doc...20Judgment.pdf
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 12-22-2011 at 12:16 PM.

  6. #56
    Regular Member thieltech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Well.... that would be libel. Our lawyer is John Monroe, who is one of the preeminent 2A lawyers in the country. I am not sure if he is exclusively 2A but I know he knows his stuff.

    Of course he gets his fee. He doesn't work for free.

    Here is the order approving the judgement: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19481227/Doc...20Judgment.pdf
    just so you know , i dont believe that to be true at any level , i just thought it was pretty out rages that some one would say that ..

  7. #57
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    Bravo, gents!

    Outstanding job putting Madison PDs chief in his place, along with the heavy-handed beat cops.

    I like the quote "... but we may not come out depending on the circumstances". Actually, that's what should have happened in this case, not sending the entire shift racing to Culvers to harangue a bunch of old white guys sitting around talking and eating cheeseburgers.

    I seem to remember the chief running his mouth after the arrest. He seems a lot quieter now.

    Hats off to each of you.

    John

  8. #58
    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
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    I just got pulled over in Madison by MPD Officer R. Veatch for failing to re-up my winter car registration sticker. (Whoops just spaced, it I only drive the jeep 2months a year and keep it out on leased farm property in Mazzo)

    I handed him my CCL with my DL when he got to 3 questions portion. I had my dashcam running hurriedly pointed at the drivers window but not much to report other than a courteous officer doing his job. He did not separate me from my sidearm or knife during the stop. I had a S+W .380 and a Kershaw Vapor III on me.

    The ticket is only 13 dollars more than the registration?

  9. #59
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Did Officer Veatch "request" your CCL and photo ID as required by §175.60 or did you consensually volunteer your Fourth Amendment protections away?

    Here's a hypothetical; if he did not request your CCL status and you did not volunteer, what might the consequences be.

    Another hypothetical; stipulating the requirements of §175.60(12) and §175.60(12g), what might be the repercussions of denying issue/possession of a CCL? A cop is prevented from fishing to learn the truth of the issue, that's reserved to the court.

  10. #60
    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Did Officer Veatch "request" your CCL and photo ID as required by §175.60 or did you consensually volunteer your Fourth Amendment protections away?

    Here's a hypothetical; if he did not request your CCL status and you did not volunteer, what might the consequences be.

    Another hypothetical; stipulating the requirements of §175.60(12) and §175.60(12g), what might be the repercussions of denying issue/possession of a CCL? A cop is prevented from fishing to learn the truth of the issue, that's reserved to the court.
    Do you know why I stopped you today.
    Not really
    Your registration tag is expired
    That's entirely possible
    I need to see your drivers license and proof of insurance,
    Sure
    Is there any alcohol, illegal drugs, or firearms in the vehicle?
    Yes I have a firearm
    *hands over all three*
    *hands back CCL and Insr*

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by templar223 View Post
    Outstanding job putting Madison PDs chief in his place, along with the heavy-handed beat cops.

    I like the quote "... but we may not come out depending on the circumstances". Actually, that's what should have happened in this case, not sending the entire shift racing to Culvers to harangue a bunch of old white guys sitting around talking and eating cheeseburgers.

    I seem to remember the chief running his mouth after the arrest. He seems a lot quieter now.

    Hats off to each of you.

    John
    Old? I was 23 when this happened...
    "I don't really care for "cream cheese"..."

  12. #62
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandil View Post
    Is there any alcohol, illegal drugs, or firearms in the vehicle? Yes I have a firearm *hands over all three*
    §175.60(2g)(c) says "display," not surrender, on request of the cop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisc. Stats.
    §345.23 Officer’s action after arrest without a warrant.
    If a person is arrested without a warrant for the violation of a traffic regulation [§345.22 Authority to arrest without a warrant], the arresting officer shall issue a citation under s.345.11, and in addition:
    (1) May release the person; or
    (2) Shall release the person when he or she: ...
    There is no authority in Wisconsin statutes for a fishing expedition on cause of a traffic violation. Here is another needed test case. Be not the one.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 12-22-2011 at 02:58 PM.

  13. #63
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57
    WCI has some of the cases posted on the WCI website but there are others that are not listed.
    I thought one of the reasons for helping with a case is publicity.
    If info isn't posted, & the WCI name/logo isn't associated with advancing 2A rights, why be involved?
    Or are you saying they're not publicizing their involvement yet, but will eventually?

    Quote Originally Posted by paul
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    Cite? I don't remember reading about that.
    http://www.wisconsinappeals.net/wp-c...0/Schultz1.pdf
    Thank you. I vaguely remember reading about the case, but hadn't seen the reference to the Culver's incident.
    Some of that might be useful in a couple of upcoming cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by thieltech
    on another site someone said the Madsion Police Department paided off the lawyers, to get them to drop the case.
    Well, a) would you take seriously anyone who'd talk like that?
    And b) no way John could be bought off.
    [Or at least, it'd be cheaper to pay each of the Mad5 $100K.]

    Quote Originally Posted by templar223
    sending the entire shift racing to Culvers to harangue a bunch of old white guys sitting around talking and eating cheeseburgers.
    Hey, now, only a couple of them fit the description of "old"(ish).
    (And when they catch up with me they'll kick my donkey!)
    And when the gal saw them, it was only 2 sitting outside polluting their lungs.
    They'd all finished eating.
    After the PD arrived the others came out.
    (Hindsight being 20/20, 1 could have stayed inside & made an assortment of phone calls.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandil
    LEO: Is there any alcohol, illegal drugs, or firearms in the vehicle?
    No. (As long as you didn't have any alcohol, any illegal drugs, or any illegal firearms.)

    And I'm sure there's going to be a case where a citizen doesn't volunteer the info that there is a firearm in the car & somehow the LEO finds out about it, & the citizen is charged w/ something like withholding evidence or lying to a cop or obstruction or something equally idiotic.

    But again, is silence lying?
    Hand over the driver's license, registration, proof of insurance when required & keep your mouth shut.
    You're not doing anything illegal, so why does the gov't have any need to know about it?

  14. #64
    Regular Member thieltech's Avatar
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    But again, is silence lying?
    Hand over the driver's license, registration, proof of insurance when required & keep your mouth shut.
    You're not doing anything illegal, so why does the gov't have any need to know about it? ...........<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< .... good advice .... stay quite with in reason

  15. #65
    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieltech

    No. (As long as you didn't have any alcohol, any illegal drugs, or any illegal firearms.)

    And I'm sure there's going to be a case where a citizen doesn't volunteer the info that there is a firearm in the car & somehow the LEO finds out about it, & the citizen is charged w/ something like withholding evidence or lying to a cop or obstruction or something equally idiotic.

    But again, is silence lying?
    Hand over the driver's license, registration, proof of insurance when required & keep your mouth shut.
    You're not doing anything illegal, so why does the gov't have any need to know about it?
    My fed tax stamps already point a seize this guys guns first arrow at me. I suppose I am less concerned with that aspect of gov knowledge than most. I will admit to being curious to see what Madison's SOP was going to be after recent UWPD and MPD memos which probably effected my answer to that question. I'd once again credit the hard work WCI put into current legislation for the benign response. It certainly would have been different 3 months ago.


    If you do maintain silence and the next command is please step out of the vehicle what is the next course of action? Lock your keys in the car? (I keep a spare door key magnet attached in a hidden spot)

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