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Thread: Roanoke cop shoots and kills dogs

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    Regular Member glockfan's Avatar
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    Roanoke cop shoots and kills dogs

    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2...bi-ar-1559756/

    Would you have stopped and shot the dogs if you were driving by?

    I'm not sure we wouldn't be charged for some crime in addition to being liable to the dog's owner.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Here we go again


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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockfan View Post
    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2...bi-ar-1559756/

    Would you have stopped and shot the dogs if you were driving by?

    I'm not sure we wouldn't be charged for some crime in addition to being liable to the dog's owner.
    What would make you believe that?



    Right to Self-defense and Defense of Others
    Foster v. Commonwealth, 13 Va. App. 380, 385, 412 S.E.2d 198, 201-02 (1991) .
    "The Supreme Court has clearly recognized that one is privileged to use force in defense of family members. See Newberry v. Commonwealth, 191 Va. 445, 459, 61 S.E.2d 318, 324 (1950); Green v. Commonwealth, 122 Va. 862, 871, 94 S.E. 940, 942 (1918); Hodges v. Commonwealth, 89 Va. 265, 272, 15 S.E. 513, 516 (1892). We find no Virginia cases, nor have any been cited to us, determining whether and when a person can use force to protect or defend a third person. Generally, however, this privilege is not limited to family members and extends to anyone, even a stranger who is entitled to claim self-defense. See 40 Am.Jur.2d Homicide § 170 (1968); In re Neagle, 135 U.S. 1, 75-76, 10 S.Ct. 658, 672, 34 L.Ed. 55 (1890); State v. Saunders, 175 W.Va. 16, 330 S.E.2d 674, 675, 76 (1985); Yardley v. State, 50 Tex.Crim. 644, 100 S.W. 399, 400 (1907); State v. Bowers, 65 S.C. 207, 210-14, 43 S.E. 656, 657-58 (1903); Stanley v. Commonwealth, 86 Ky. 440, 440-45, 6 S.W. 155, 155-57 (1887); Mitchell v. State, 22 Ga. 211, 234 (1857). Like self-defense, the circumstances in which the protection of others may be raised as a defense are carefully circumscribed so as to preclude such a claim in situations where one has instigated the fray in order to provide an excuse for assaulting or murdering his enemy. In a majority of jurisdictions, a person asserting a claim of defense of others may do so only where the person to whose aid he or she went would have been legally entitled to defend himself or herself. 40 Am.Jur.2d Homicide § 171 (1968)."
    Lynn v. Commonwealth, 27 Va. App. 336, 499 S.E.2d 1 (1998).
    "Self-defense and defense of others are affirmative defenses for which the accused has the burden of persuading the fact finder that he or she acted in defense of self or another to the degree necessary to raise a reasonable doubt about his or her guilt. See Smith, 17 Va. App. at 71, 435 S.E.2d at 416; Foster v. Commonwealth, 13 Va. App. 380, 385, 412 S.E.2d 198, 201-02 (1991) (recognizing defense of others "is commensurate with self-defense"). Although undisputed facts may establish self-defense as a matter of law, see, e.g., Hensley v. Commonwealth, 161 Va. 1033, 170 S.E. 568 (1933), whether the accused establishes that he or she acted in either respect is generally a question of fact. See Yarborough v. Commonwealth, 217 Va. 971, 979, 234 S.E.2d 286, 292 (1977)...
    "[A] person asserting a claim of defense of others may do so only where the person to whose aid he or she went would have been legally entitled to defend himself or herself." Foster, 13 Va. App. at 385, 412 S.E.2d at 201 (citing with approval 40 Am. Jur.2d Homicide § 171 (1968)). Thus, one may be justified in using deadly force to defend another person where he or she reasonably believes that the person defended faces an imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death and that such person was not at fault in bringing about the necessity to use the deadly force. See Foster, 13 Va.App. at 385-86, 412 S.E.2d at 201-02; see also 1 Wayne R. LaFave, Substantive Criminal Law § 5.8 (1986)."
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Just going by the news report, I see nothing wrong with what the officer did.....
    James Reynolds

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Just going by the news report, I see nothing wrong with what the officer did.....
    Not only was there no "dynamic entry", there was no search warrant to be served. Cop had absolutely no business shooting dogs unless .... [/sarcasm]

    Oh! The dogs were actually biting the woman and had dragged her to the ground.

    Although it is somewhat puzzling why the reportologist did not include a description of the wounds suffered. Guess they got all wrapped up in making sure everybody knows the hero was a cop. (Not knocking him. Actually glad he happened along and was able to intervene without causing more injury.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Are we being baited?
    I HATE to see dogs shot or injured, but if it’s a choice of a dog’s life over a human, then the dog must go. I see nothing wrong with what the officer did.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Here we go again

    Aren't you getting tired of eating the same old stale stuff?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockfan View Post
    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2...bi-ar-1559756/

    Would you have stopped and shot the dogs if you were driving by?

    I'm not sure we wouldn't be charged for some crime in addition to being liable to the dog's owner.
    I fail to see an issue in the shooting of the dogs. Virginia permits for use of deadly force in defense of the life of another if the shooter feels that person is in imminent danger of death and or grievous injury. The dogs were not on a leash (VA has a leash law), the dogs had taken the woman to the ground and persisted in the attack.

    Were I in that same situation I would have taken the same action as the office, and I would have welcomed the owner of the dogs coming forward. In addition to the charges they'd be facing for the dogs being off the leash and the attack on the woman and being criminally responsible for their actions (not to mention being liable to the woman for her pain, suffering and hospital bills) I'd want to be reimbursed for having to waste +p+ rounds on the dogs.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Not only was there no "dynamic entry", there was no search warrant to be served. Cop had absolutely no business shooting dogs unless .... [/sarcasm]

    Oh! The dogs were actually biting the woman and had dragged her to the ground.

    Although it is somewhat puzzling why the reportologist did not include a description of the wounds suffered. Guess they got all wrapped up in making sure everybody knows the hero was a cop. (Not knocking him. Actually glad he happened along and was able to intervene without causing more injury.)

    stay safe.
    It looked like a flash report. Get the info out there as fast as possible so they can say "First!"

    My first instinct does tell me that a double standard would be applied if one of us were to do the same, but near the end it says he will be under internal investigation. So maybe we'd get drummed up on charges, maybe not. From the little we can tell from the report it does seem to be justified defense of another.

    Glad to know the lady is safe.

    Wonder why he violated policy... Police have no responsibility for protection of an individual.... So if the lady was on her own property should he have waited till they left her property and THEN became a threat to the community? (sarcasm and facetiousness)

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Operative phrase:
    ... shot and killed two pit bulls ...
    Now, suppose the animal were a protected endangered species, would there be a problem with the Feds?

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinchin View Post
    (va has a leash law), .
    cite???????

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Police say an initial investigation indicates that Fire had clear shots at the dogs.

    The 51-year-old woman told police she did not know the dogs.

    Fike remains on duty. An internal investigation will be conducted

    Fike & Fire, ??? I am confused.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    cite???????
    I'll save you the trouble Chinchin. Virginia does NOT have a leash law. It does allow localities to impose one if they wish.

    Just trying to keep the information correct. (I needed to get fresh popcorn anyway)

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    cite???????
    As you wish. I grant you that my words were chosen poorly. Should have said "county" as opposed to claiming VA as a whole. Good catch.


    Roanoke County Code of Ordinances
    Sec. 5-28. - Running at large—Prohibited.

    (a) It shall be unlawful for the owner of any domestic or feral dog, exotic or poisonous animal or exotic bird or poultry to permit such domestic or feral dog, exotic or poisonous animal or exotic bird or poultry to run at large in the county at any time during any month of the year.
    (b) This section shall not apply to a companion animal engaged in lawful hunting in open season or when being trained or exercised and accompanied by its owner or custodian or under the immediate control of its owner or custodian.

    Definitions:
    To run at large: A domestic or feral dog, exotic or poisonous animal or exotic bird or poultry shall be deemed to run at large while roaming, running or self-hunting off the property of its owner or custodian and not under its owner's or custodian's immediate control.

    Companion animal: Any domestic or feral dog, domestic or feral cat, nonhuman primate, guinea pig, hamster, rabbit not raised for human food or fiber, exotic or native animal, reptile, exotic or native bird, or any feral animal or any animal under the care, custody, or ownership of a person or any animal that is bought, sold, traded, or bartered by any person. Agricultural animals, game species, or any animals regulated under federal law as research animals shall not be considered companion animals for the purposes of this chapter.
    Last edited by ChinChin; 12-21-2011 at 10:41 PM.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Skidmark, when seconds count the cops are only minutes away! Well, except in this one case. But of course she probably would not have been bitten at all if she'd had her own gun.....

    Did you notice the one and only comment in the article :^). Just funnin' ya Glockfan....
    Last edited by Neplusultra; 12-22-2011 at 04:26 AM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Here we go again

    I've been on this forum for four years. In that time I've noticed a shift in the old folks towards the "grumpy old man" syndrome. But I guess this may only be the result of being tired of seeing the "Been there, done that, seen the results" paradigm :^). (you will notice my old school smiley instead of using the icon smiley)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neplusultra View Post
    I've been on this forum for four years. In that time I've noticed a shift in the old folks towards the "grumpy old man" syndrome. But I guess this may only be the result of being tired of seeing the "Been there, done that, seen the results" paradigm :^). (you will notice my old school smiley instead of using the icon smiley)
    No, not really grumpy Nep.
    I just know sooner or later someone, probably from North of Ashland or parts thereabouts and probably with less than 30 posts who is only OCing until he gets old enough to get his CHP....will give the OCDO version of Nestors famous quote in Tremors:

    • 00:43:38 ...and the lines are down. - That's how it works.
    • 00:44:01 - "Suckoids." - "Oids." I like "snakeoids."
    • 00:44:06 One of them comes near me and I'll hit him with a five-pound pickax. That's what I'll do!
    • 00:44:10 You don't understand. They come up from the ground and grab you.
    This thread is Deja Vu.

    Last edited by peter nap; 12-22-2011 at 07:15 AM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    No, not really grumpy Nep.
    I just know sooner or later someone, probably from North of Ashland or parts thereabouts and probably with less than 30 posts who is only OCing until he gets old enough to get his CHP....will give the OCDO version of Nestors famous quote in Tremors:

    •00:43:38 ...and the lines are down. - That's how it works.
    •00:44:01 - "Suckoids." - "Oids." I like "snakeoids."
    •00:44:06 One of them comes near me and I'll hit him with a five-pound pickax. That's what I'll do!
    •00:44:10 You don't understand. They come up from the ground and grab you.


    This thread is Deja Vu.


    Somebody makes a five-pound pick axe??? I don't know, just sayin' I've never seen one.....

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neplusultra View Post
    Somebody makes a five-pound pick axe??? I don't know, just sayin' I've never seen one.....
    Its a dentist's instrument.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Regular Member glockfan's Avatar
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    I would have stopped and kicked the crap out of the dogs to end the attack but honestly, I've never had to deal with flesh eating dogs, maybe sometimes, you have to shoot them.

    The worst dog related thing that ever happened to me was walking my dog in Central Park in NYC, another large dog off leash came over and attacked mine for no reason at all.

    I gave it a huge kick in the chest but not with the point of my foot 'cause I didn't want to kill it. Damn right it went away.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Unhappy Central Park in NYC large dog attacked my dog

    Quote Originally Posted by glockfan View Post
    I would have stopped and kicked the crap out of the dogs to end the attack but honestly, I've never had to deal with flesh eating dogs, maybe sometimes, you have to shoot them.

    The worst dog related thing that ever happened to me was walking my dog in Central Park in NYC, another large dog off leash came over and attacked mine for no reason at all.

    I gave it a huge kick in the chest but not with the point of my foot 'cause I didn't want to kill it. Damn right it went away.


    Playing Internet commando and "Monday" morning QB'ing, woulda coulda shoulda.

    Apples and oranges!!!!!!

    In NYC the option to use a firearm isn't there, even if a Law abiding citizen had no other choice, as guns are basically outlawed.

    Other factors to consider number of animals attacking, type/strength, size of the attacking animal and what the animal is attacking.
    A dog attacking your/a dog isn't quite the same as a dog attacking you or another person.

    More epic fail on your part!!!!
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockfan View Post
    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2...bi-ar-1559756/

    Would you have stopped and shot the dogs if you were driving by?

    I'm not sure we wouldn't be charged for some crime in addition to being liable to the dog's owner.

    It depends on who the dogs are biting and how good of a job they're doing. I can name a few folks that if I saw a pack of crazed dogs getting the better of, I'd probably walk on or get some good video of the action.

  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug23838 View Post
    It depends on who the dogs are biting and how good of a job they're doing. I can name a few folks that if I saw a pack of crazed dogs getting the better of, I'd probably walk on or get some good video of the action.
    +1000,00000

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neplusultra View Post
    I've been on this forum for four years. In that time I've noticed a shift in the old folks towards the "grumpy old man" syndrome. But I guess this may only be the result of being tired of seeing the "Been there, done that, seen the results" paradigm :^). (you will notice my old school smiley instead of using the icon smiley)
    Each year, they are older. Thus, grumpier!


    Last edited by wrightme; 12-23-2011 at 12:56 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  25. #25
    Regular Member glockfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent19 View Post
    Playing Internet commando and "Monday" morning QB'ing, woulda coulda shoulda.

    Apples and oranges!!!!!!

    In NYC the option to use a firearm isn't there, even if a Law abiding citizen had no other choice, as guns are basically outlawed.

    Other factors to consider number of animals attacking, type/strength, size of the attacking animal and what the animal is attacking.
    A dog attacking your/a dog isn't quite the same as a dog attacking you or another person.

    NYC sucks. I never could understand how people elected Bloomberg?

    I'm not gonna roll up on a dog attack and immediately think of killing I'll try to give it a beating first.

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