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Thread: Question about AOW

  1. #1
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Question about AOW

    I know this isn't specifically OC related but I am considering getting one of these http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php and naming it Noble.

    I need to get a sign off from the local chief law enforcement officer (shouldn't be a problem). I guess the question is this. Let's assume I fill out the ATF paperwork in my name and purchase it. I leave Noble at home and my wife needs to use it because the zombie apocalypse occurs while I'm not there. Did she break the law? Do we have to have the ATF form for each person that will touch the gun?

    If there is some place else that I can find out these answers in a relatively easy to read format?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Interesting Choice Of A.O.W.

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I know this isn't specifically OC related but I am considering getting one of these http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php and naming it Noble.

    I need to get a sign off from the local chief law enforcement officer (shouldn't be a problem). I guess the question is this. Let's assume I fill out the ATF paperwork in my name and purchase it. I leave Noble at home and my wife needs to use it because the zombie apocalypse occurs while I'm not there. Did she break the law? Do we have to have the ATF form for each person that will touch the gun?

    If there is some place else that I can find out these answers in a relatively easy to read format?

    Thanks!
    If the Z.A. happens it won't matter ... but to answer your question I am certain it would be illegal for anyone but you to possess it unless you were within a reasonable distance of the NFA weapon. I am looking for the actual verbage now and will post it when I find it. The best thing to do is NOT get any NFA weapon as an individual but instead get an NFA weapon as a Corporation. In the Corporation you and anyone else listed on it could then handle the NFA weapon that the Corporation owns. It gets confusing and it has been a few years since I delved into the NFA world but I do remember at my last machine gun shoot in Ohio that the actual registered owner had to accompany the machine gun(s) when they were mounted in the helicopter. The helicopter company had mounts for various machine guns and the guys with the big guns (like the .50 BMGs and M60's) mounted their machine gun in the helicopter. Then people would pay to ride in the helicopter and blow away targets on the ground. The person who had legal registration of that machine gun had to accompany those shooting his weapon otherwise they would have violated the NFA.

    It's been awhile and I am looking through my BATFE books from my FFL days.

    Link to National Firearms Act: http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

    Added: (M25) Does the owner of a registered
    NFA firearm have to have any
    evidence to show it is registered
    lawfully to him or her?
    Yes. The approved application received
    from ATF serves as evidence
    of registration of the NFA firearm in
    the owner's name. This document
    must be kept available for inspection
    by ATF officers. It is suggested that a
    photocopy of the approved application
    be carried by the owner when the
    weapon is being transported.

    Added: (M8) What can happen to someone
    who has an NFA firearm which is
    not registered to him?
    Violators may be fined not more
    than $250,000, and imprisoned not
    more than 10 years, or both. In addition,
    any vessel, vehicle or aircraft
    used to transport, conceal or possess
    an unregistered NFA firearm is subject
    to seizure and forfeiture, as is the
    weapon itself.
    [49 U.S.C. 781-788, 26 U.S.C. 5861 and
    5872]
    Last edited by rcawdor57; 12-22-2011 at 11:30 AM.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  3. #3
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Paul...

    I cannot offer any answers to your questions as I am 1000% sure that you are more knowledgeable on any applicable laws that I am, but for whatever it is worth.....

    This is a real COOL firearm, but....

    With the minimum shell capacity I would question it's usefullness in defending against more than 1 or two "Zombies". Not to mention it probably has the "kick" of a Missouri Mule. I am not saying I would not own one as it is WAY COOL, but for actual home defence, I would consider a "Tactialized" 12 GA. that would have a much higher shell capacity (some come with "Drums") and maybe a little easier to "control" after firing the first shot...

    I am at work now (don't tell anybody), so I will post a pic here tonight of my "Home Defence Unit"... Mossberg 500 Tacticalized from the factory with a little added by me....

    Just my $0.02 and worth exactly the paper it was printed on ( was not printed on any paper)....

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

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  4. #4
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    Paul...

    I cannot offer any answers to your questions as I am 1000% sure that you are more knowledgeable on any applicable laws that I am, but for whatever it is worth.....

    This is a real COOL firearm, but....

    With the minimum shell capacity I would question it's usefullness in defending against more than 1 or two "Zombies". Not to mention it probably has the "kick" of a Missouri Mule. I am not saying I would not own one as it is WAY COOL, but for actual home defence, I would consider a "Tactialized" 12 GA. that would have a much higher shell capacity (some come with "Drums") and maybe a little easier to "control" after firing the first shot...

    I am at work now (don't tell anybody), so I will post a pic here tonight of my "Home Defence Unit"... Mossberg 500 Tacticalized from the factory with a little added by me....

    Just my $0.02 and worth exactly the paper it was printed on ( was not printed on any paper)....

    Outdoorsman1

    So... http://www.remington.com/products/fi...-tactical.aspx would be better for the ZA?

    My wife and I own several LLC's so maybe they will buy the Super Shorty. From what I understand, no LEO sign off required for that.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    From what I understand in WI, the "living trust" setup is a little messed up compared to other states when using it to get out from under the LEO signoff requirement. I believe someone sent me some correspondence on that issue. Anyway, it is the way to go, as I understand, if you want other people to be able to use and transport the AOW without you. The trust owns the item and the members of the trust can use it.

    IANAL and I may well be wrong but that's how I understand it.

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  6. #6
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    For home defence I woud go with the ....

    http://www.remington.com/products/fi...-tactical.aspx

    For strictly "Coolness" I would go with your first choice... except maybe for the legal "hassles"...

    Here is a generic of my home defence unit beore I personalized it a little...

    Ok... WTF..??? I tired downloading a pic and being told it eceeds my quota...????????

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
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  7. #7
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Snip...

    Added: (M25) Does the owner of a registered
    NFA firearm have to have any
    evidence to show it is registered
    lawfully to him or her?
    Yes. The approved application received
    from ATF serves as evidence
    of registration of the NFA firearm in
    the owner's name. This document
    must be kept available for inspection
    by ATF officers. It is suggested that a
    photocopy of the approved application
    be carried by the owner when the
    weapon is being transported.

    Added: (M8) What can happen to someone
    who has an NFA firearm which is
    not registered to him?
    Violators may be fined not more
    than $250,000, and imprisoned not
    more than 10 years, or both. In addition,
    any vessel, vehicle or aircraft
    used to transport, conceal or possess
    an unregistered NFA firearm is subject
    to seizure and forfeiture, as is the
    weapon itself.
    [49 U.S.C. 781-788, 26 U.S.C. 5861 and
    5872]
    I have heard that by applying and obtaining and NFA registration, you are pretty much giving your permission for you home to be searched anytime for any reason... like I said, I "heard" this... Just wondering if it is true... ???????

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 12-22-2011 at 12:02 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
    Wisconsin C.C.W. License Holder
    Utah State Permit Holder.
    Arizona State Permit Holder.

  8. #8
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    Snip...



    I have heard that by applying and obtaining and NFA registration, you are pretty much giving your permission for you home to be searched anytime for any reason... like I said, I "heard" this... Just wondering if it is true... ???????

    Outdoorsman1
    i'll be right over.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Snip...

    Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1

    I have heard that by applying and obtaining and NFA registration, you are pretty much giving your permission for you home to be searched anytime for any reason... like I said, I "heard" this... Just wondering if it is true... ???????

    Outdoorsman1

    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    i'll be right over.

    I have heard that by applying and obtaining and NFA registration, you are pretty much giving your permission for you home to be searched anytime for any reason by Federal LEO... like I said, I "heard" this... Just wondering if it is true... ???????

    There ... fixed it... besides... I have no cheeseburgers......

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
    Wisconsin C.C.W. License Holder
    Utah State Permit Holder.
    Arizona State Permit Holder.

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    A trust is the way to go from what I understand. You can just add people to the trust.

    If you check out AR15.com the have a NFA section and there is also a thread right now in the WI hometown section about lawyers to set up trusts I think.

    I was going to do it the DIY way with an old version of Willmaker that has a trust module, but I just never had the time. I am also worried the ATF might change something and my homemade trust would become invalid, making me an instant criminal. I don't want my dog (ok, my cat) shot.

    Remember that dealer you met in Madison on the first? He can answer your questions and set you up with whatever you need. He's good people. I think he even owns what your looking at.

    I'll pm you his personal contact info tonight.


    Anyone else looking for a great class 3 guy can lookup "Prebans" on AR15.COM. The only thing is I don't think he can transfer machine guns at the moment because of some new ATF interpretation of WI law, and he is unable to get a sign off in Milwaukee county (no class 3 dealers can) as I understand it.




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    Last edited by Jason in WI; 12-22-2011 at 12:55 PM.

  11. #11
    McX
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    Snip...







    I have heard that by applying and obtaining and NFA registration, you are pretty much giving your permission for you home to be searched anytime for any reason by Federal LEO... like I said, I "heard" this... Just wondering if it is true... ???????

    There ... fixed it... besides... I have no cheeseburgers......

    Outdoorsman1
    the cursed no cheeseburgers symbol/sign.

  12. #12
    Regular Member RR_Broccoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason in WI View Post
    A trust is the way to go from what I understand. You can just add people to the trust.

    If you check out AR15.com the have a NFA section and there is also a thread right now in the WI hometown section about lawyers to set up trusts I think.

    I was going to do it the DIY way with an old version of Willmaker that has a trust module, but I just never had the time. I am also worried the ATF might change something and my homemade trust would become invalid, making me an instant criminal. I don't want my dog (ok, my cat) shot.

    Remember that dealer you met in Madison on the first? He can answer your questions and set you up with whatever you need. He's good people. I think he even owns what your looking at.

    I'll pm you his personal contact info tonight.


    Anyone else looking for a great class 3 guy can lookup "Prebans" on AR15.COM. The only thing is I don't think he can transfer machine guns at the moment because of some new ATF interpretation of WI law, and he is unable to get a sign off in Milwaukee county (no class 3 dealers can) as I understand it.




    Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk
    This is the way to go. Prebans was selling (and then raffled?) a Serbu Super Shorty last year. He's in the area, knows his stuff.

    Realistically, it's a cool weapon but in the "you'll shoot your leg off" category for vehicle defense. For home defense, a bigger shotty is probably better.

    If you want an easy high power weapon for lots of situations, maybe an AR15 pistol would be better. It's registered as a pistol, so it's LEGALLY a pistol and you get it, just like a pistol. They are loud as heck though, so don't plan on keeping your hearing if you defend yourself while in a vehicle or in a home. Can't beat 30 rounds though. Of course, mind your back drops there's quite a bit more penetration with one of those.
    "I can only be held responsible for my own stupidity." - Captain Nemo

  13. #13
    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason in WI View Post
    I was going to do it the DIY way with an old version of Willmaker that has a trust module, but I just never had the time. I am also worried the ATF might change something and my homemade trust would become invalid, making me an instant criminal. I don't want my dog (ok, my cat) shot.
    I spent basically an entire month going back and forth over email\phone with the Sun Prairie PD trying to get a 5230.1 signed off on. I ended up having to deal with Chief Anholt, department spokes person Rem Brant, and BATF investigator Owensack but they did eventually agree to sign off on it for me. Of course after a month of waiting I decided a trust was really the way to do it. Paid for Willmaker's living trusts module and quickly decided it was so full of holes I wasn't going to risk using it. Paid a lawyer for a NFA specific trust and applied using that.

    The main issue with a corp purchase is you have to pay the incorporation fee every single year and as soon as you don't you're not legal anymore.

    WI BATF office (414-727-6200)
    Umentum & Kimps, S.C. (920-593-2646)

  14. #14
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I know this isn't specifically OC related but I am considering getting one of these http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php and naming it Noble.I need to get a sign off from the local chief law enforcement officer (shouldn't be a problem). I guess the question is this. Let's assume I fill out the ATF paperwork in my name and purchase it. I leave Noble at home and my wife needs to use it because the zombie apocalypse occurs while I'm not there. Did she break the law? Do we have to have the ATF form for each person that will touch the gun?

    If there is some place else that I can find out these answers in a relatively easy to read format?

    Thanks!
    So if you name it "Noble", and you use it for keeping the peace, then it might qualify for a "Noble Peace Prize"...

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
    Wisconsin C.C.W. License Holder
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  15. #15
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    So if you name it "Noble", and you use it for keeping the peace, then it might qualify for a "Noble Peace Prize"...

    Outdoorsman1
    Groan.

  16. #16
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Cool little gun Paul, but practical? I am not so sure. I am not criticizing you or your thought process, but rather I am adding my $0.02 for what it is worth.

    To examine the practicality, let's look at smooth bore ballistics. The fireball coming out of this little beauty will be awe-inspiring because so much powder will not yet have ignited and will do so leaving the barrel (where it will not add to the energy of the projectile release). In a home defense situation, this may be good. It means penetration of the bad guy, but little danger to your neighbor. Having said that, with such a short barrel, the 00 Buckshot (when you care enough to send the very best) will begin to disperse immediately after leaving the barrel. Depending on the distances involved, this may mean that some pellets miss the bad guy entirely. Finally, there is the matter of follow-through if you need to take more than one shot. After the first blast out of that little gem, you may be slightly disoriented, particularly in marginal light situations.

    A handgun offers the most utility in a home defense situation, but a shotgun, particularly one loaded with 00 Buckshot, offers the best "stop the threat" power. The longer the barrel, the more concentrated the buckshot pattern is (think of 00 Buckshot as nine .32 caliber bullets). Even #8 bird-shot can be disabling to bad guys if fired from a barrel of 18.5 inches or more. My personal tactical shotgun is a Mossberg Maverick 88 12-guage pump action shotgun with 18.5 barrel, M-4 style collapsing stock, heat shield with enhanced sights, trigger safety, and pistol grip.

    As a concealed carry firearm, that mini-shotgun is not a good idea in my opinion. It holds 3 in Condition 1, but if you want to preserve the "family jewels", this is one firearm that should not be carried ready to fire (less dangerous if you can get a custom holster for it that guards the trigger). And, if the bad guy manages to achieve some cover, or there are multiple bad guys, two may not be enough.

    Finally, you have heard the Yellow Cat teach "practice with what you carry and carry what you use to practice". You will be much more able to save yourself and loved ones with less raw power and more accuracy. I would much rather see one of my students put 6 of 6 on a 9-inch paper plate (thoracic center of mass) with a .380 (as your wife did), than have a student miss that same paper plate with a .45 ACP. Practice with that little "hand cannon" will not be pleasant.

    If you decide to proceed, having the trust already set up is the way to go. My advice - find a WI law firm that has done them before.

    Yellow Cat Out -
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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