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Thread: Carry in Portage Police Station Illegal?

  1. #1
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Carry in Portage Police Station Illegal?

    Went to the Portage Police station to get a license to purchase, possess, carry, or transport a pistol. Went up to the counter and was helped by Officer DuMont. Gave him my license to get the license. Two officers came out of the bathroom and noticed my pistol but did not say anything. The officers went into the back part where Officer DuMont was and they began talking where I could not seem them. I hear "CCW" a bunch of times then "Well I'm not sure". Officer DuMont came around the wall and asked if I was an officer. I said no. He then told me I could not OC there because there is an "open court" upstairs and I would need to secure my weapon in my vehicle and this was not to the time to try to voice my opinion on it. I asked for his name and then proceeded to my vehicle and secure my gun there

    Now people will probably chastise me for doing what the officer said but I did not realize about the court upstairs and I do believe that there is somewhere in Lansing where one place isn't a PFZ but because there is a court attached the people are calling the whole building a court?????? I didn't want to risk it. If I would have been in the park across the street or somewhere like Steak n Shake I would not have complied. So am I pretty much prohibited from carrying there or as the officer just full of it?

    EDIT: There are no signs at the door stating weapons are prohibited or anything.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 12-22-2011 at 01:02 PM.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    You did the right thing. If there was a court, then the officers should be commended for honoring their oath to protect your rights from domestic threats.

    Now, you should do some research to confirm or deny the claim.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    You did the right thing. If there was a court, then the officers should be commended for honoring their oath to protect your rights from domestic threats.

    Now, you should do some research to confirm or deny the claim.
    What exactly should I research? When I was there, after disarming, someone came in to pay a ticket and the officer gave him some piece of paper that showed court dates or when he could pay it or something. Would it make a difference if its a closed court or something?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    No difference. IIRC, you cant be in a place where court business is located. Verify if there is court business happening. I'll try to find the cite, but right now, I gotta scoot.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    No difference. IIRC, you cant be in a place where court business is located. Verify if there is court business happening. I'll try to find the cite, but right now, I gotta scoot.
    http://www.kalcounty.com/courts/district/locations.htm

    It does house the court house. Interesting that I never knew that.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    You did what was asked of you and complied; if there was indeed an ”Open Court” upstairs, you were following a lawful order. Since you were unaware at that particular time if there was or was not a court upstairs you lacked sufficient knowledge to argue with the officer. You did exactly what you should have done. Once the weapon was properly stowed away, you were then free to gather Intel as to the information given to you by the officer was factual.

    If he was correct, consider yourself lucky, you got a warning by an officer could have easily made today a bad day for you.

    If he was incorrect then its time to educate. Much easier to do that walking free than in handcuffs and in jail!

    find out if there is a court there, and let us all know so no one else has any issues there
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Venator may have useful info here.

    I think the court has to have a documented security plan that includes metal detectors in order to ban guns.
    Last edited by TheQ; 12-22-2011 at 02:05 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

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    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    No difference. IIRC, you cant be in a place where court business is located. Verify if there is court business happening. I'll try to find the cite, but right now, I gotta scoot.


    I don't have a cite, so I probably shouldn't open my mouth, but I seem to remember people talking about Eaton County court, and the Eaton county public works, etc being in the same building... there is a "secure" area to the left where the court is and you cannot carry in there, but the remainder of the building, I believe you can carry... anyone want to chime in?
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

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    Thumbs up

    A while ago I remember reading that the judge in Hillsdale County had ruled that firearms were allowed in the clerks office ect. that are located on the main floor of the court house. The actual court rooms are on the second floor which is a pfz. Seems like I read at the time that it was up to the judge to decide if the whole building would be a pfz. Seems our judge is pro 2A.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasgasmi View Post
    A while ago I remember reading that the judge in Hillsdale County had ruled that firearms were allowed in the clerks office ect. that are located on the main floor of the court house. The actual court rooms are on the second floor which is a pfz. Seems like I read at the time that it was up to the judge to decide if the whole building would be a pfz. Seems our judge is pro 2A.

    you are correct on all counts
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Venator may have useful info here.

    I think the court has to have a documented security plan that includes metal detectors in order to ban guns.
    Michigan Supreme Court Administrative Order 2001-1: Security Policy

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...6S8tUg&cad=rja

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    I believe it's up to the Chief Justice to determine if only the courtrooms and court offices or the entire builiding falls under the security plan. It is also supposed to be posted. So if they have a security plan and the entrances are not posted you should contact them and request they post them to avoid any future problems.

    ETA: I'd bet money that the majority of CJs make it so the entire building is off-limits. Can't let people go walking around exercising rights and whatnot.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 12-22-2011 at 04:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    I believe it's up to the Chief Justice to determine if only the courtrooms and court offices or the entire builiding falls under the security plan. It is also supposed to be posted. So if they have a security plan and the entrances are not posted you should contact them and request they post them to avoid any future problems.

    ETA: I'd bet money that the majority of CJs make it so the entire building is off-limits. Can't let people go walking around exercising rights and whatnot.

    Bronson
    Administrative Order 2001-1, No weapons are allowed in the (courthouse, courtroom, office, or space used for official
    court business or by judicial employees).

    The order states nothing about the entire building?, but as you state the entire building is in fact,what has happened in Monroe County, the entire building that houses, register of deeds and county clerk is off-limits. But i think Monroe, may have a poor building design for implementation of this order. and it is posted at the entrance.

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    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gort View Post
    Administrative Order 2001-1, No weapons are allowed in the (courthouse, courtroom, office, or space used for official
    court business or by judicial employees).

    The order states nothing about the entire building?, but as you state the entire building is in fact,what has happened in Monroe County, the entire building that houses, register of deeds and county clerk is off-limits. But i think Monroe, may have a poor building design for implementation of this order. and it is posted at the entrance.
    In talking to the Prosecutor here in Monroe over the summer, he mentioned that he did not believe the judge had the authority to probhibit legally carried weapons on the first floor since the court is on the 2nd floor. He was talking about PFZ's and was unclear if the county clerks offices on the first floor would be a PFZ under the judges ruling, but he said "who in the room wants to be the first test case"!

    He was actually answering a question about entering the building when court was not in session
    When Guns are OUTLAWED, Ill be an OUTLAW
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    So do all courts have to go by this administrative order or is it something that is an option to them. If it is an option I'd like to think I could get my hands on whatever Kzoo County courts policies are. If all courts have to go by the AO it would seem to me unless the entire Portage Police department is exempt all of their officers are banned from carrying in the police station unless they are working as court security or transporting prisoners.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gort View Post
    Administrative Order 2001-1, No weapons are allowed in the (courthouse, courtroom, office, or space used for official
    court business or by judicial employees
    ).

    The order states nothing about the entire building?, but as you state the entire building is in fact,what has happened in Monroe County, the entire building that houses, register of deeds and county clerk is off-limits. But i think Monroe, may have a poor building design for implementation of this order. and it is posted at the entrance.
    The MAO does not clearly define the blue and, in my opinion, leaves it wide-open for interpretation. In other words, any building, or "space" where access to a courthouse/courtroom via hallway, stairs, tunnel, etc, could be posted prohibiting weapons, regardless if detectors, and/or security is present for gaining entry.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Found this!!

    Was looking up stuff about Kalamazoo County Courts. The "court" I was at is the "South Location" http://www.kalcounty.com/courts/district/locations.htm

    This on their website on at different page http://www.kalcounty.com/courts/security.htm Notice how in the beginning the South Location is not mentioned because they don't have security equipment or personnel at least on the first floor. I wonder if the "The following items may not be brought into the buildings:" would include the first floor where the Portage Police station is housed.

    COURTHOUSE SECURITY
    The entrances to the Gull Road Courthouse, the Michigan Avenue Courthouse and the Crosstown Center Courthouse are monitored by security equipment and security personnel.

    The following items may not be brought into the buildings: guns, knives (including small pocket knives), razors, scissors, box cutters, any type of spray, and food/beverages (except for identified jurors and staff). All packages may be inspected. Dangerous or illegal objects may be seized.

    Litigants should arrive early for court proceedings to allow time for security measures.

    The following items are prohibited in the courtrooms:

    weapons of any sort
    electronic equipment (unless approved by the court)
    inappropriate attire, such as t-shirts with swear words, depicting violence or sexual acts, promoting drug or alcohol use; muscle shirts, tank tops, halter tops; shorts; cut-off jeans, baggy pants that fall below the hips; micro-mini skirts; pants with holes; hats (except those worn for religious purposes)
    food, beverages, chewing gum, tobacco
    newspapers
    children making noise.
    Disruptive behavior will not be tolerated. Security staff may remove offenders from the building and judges may hold violators in contempt of court.

    Cell Phones and Pagers:
    Cell phones and pagers must be placed in the silent mode, unless otherwise instructed at entry to the courthouse. Use of cell phones and pagers is not allowed in the courtrooms or hearing rooms. Use of cell phones and pagers in other areas of the courthouse is permitted unless a restriction notice is posted. Users should exercise discretion in their conversations being held in a public environment.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    So do all courts have to go by this administrative order or is it something that is an option to them. If it is an option I'd like to think I could get my hands on whatever Kzoo County courts policies are. If all courts have to go by the AO it would seem to me unless the entire Portage Police department is exempt all of their officers are banned from carrying in the police station unless they are working as court security or transporting prisoners.
    http://blog.mlive.com/citpat/2008/06...in_courts.html

    At a time when even nail files and pocket knives are barred from courts, Hillsdale County has reopened its historic courthouse to citizens who legally pack weapons.

    Circuit Judge Michael Smith recently ordered the "no guns" signs removed at the courthouse in downtown Hillsdale, saying the ban is against state law.

    Smith said that courthouses are not exempt from state concealed-weapons laws, so there's no way to lawfully stop people from carrying a concealed weapon if they're licensed properly.

    The ban against citizens carrying guns in courts is based on a 2001 administrative order by the Michigan Supreme Court, not on legislation.

    "Weapons are not permitted in any courtroom, office, or other space used for official court business or by judicial employees unless the chief judge or other person designated by the chief judge has given prior approval consistent with the court's written policy," the high court's order states.

    Public places such as schools and churches — but not courts — were exempted under the revised concealed-weapons law of 1996.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Also found this.....

    It seems "weapons" are prohibted from the buildings with no exemption placed on their website. And I would like to point out there are no signs indicating this outside the South Location and there is no security, at least that I saw, that could prevent any concealed weapons.
    http://www.kalcounty.com/courts/district/etiquette.htm
    COURTROOM ETIQUETTE

    PROHIBITED IN 8TH DISTRICT COURTROOMS:

    Weapons*

    * These items are prohibited in the Courthouse; they cannot be brought into the building.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Please get a copy of the Court Security Plan to determine what is and is not covered. Based upon that, have a conversation to ensure that it is posted.

    (the above basically echoes Bronson's Post)

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    He then told me I could not OC there because there is an "open court" upstairs and I would need to secure my weapon in my vehicle and this was not to the time to try to voice my opinion on it. I asked for his name and then proceeded to my vehicle and secure my gun there.
    You did the right thing. Given the conversation as you report it, the LEO concluding with ". . . and this is not the time to . . . voice your opinion", that is a directly implied threat of detention, arrest, or other negative action toward you by an agent of government under color of authority.

    The right thing to do, as you did, is comply under duress and gather info (the officer's name). Then, follow all available channels of complaint and redress at a later time. The goal is to maintain control of all legal processes (as a plaintiff or complainant), and not give up control of the legal process and become the target of it (by getting arrested and potentially becoming the "defendant").
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    You did the right thing. Given the conversation as you report it, the LEO concluding with ". . . and this is not the time to . . . voice your opinion", that is a directly implied threat of detention, arrest, or other negative action toward you by an agent of government under color of authority.

    The right thing to do, as you did, is comply under duress and gather info (the officer's name). Then, follow all available channels of complaint and redress at a later time. The goal is to maintain control of all legal processes (as a plaintiff or complainant), and not give up control of the legal process and become the target of it (by getting arrested and potentially becoming the "defendant").
    Thanks Dan, and everyone else for their support on this. I've lived in Portage my whole life and always thought that was just a police station. I think they'd have a tough case if they would have just flat out arrested me looking at the fact there is nothing saying it is a court or signs indicating weapons or anything else is prohibited. All the courts I've heard of have metal detectors and stuff.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  23. #23
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    I know one of the Security Officers at the Monroe Courthouse. We worked together for a few years. Even he says some of the rules are stupid, as he as a Security Officer can't bring in a pocket knife on his way to get gun.

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    I think you would have won, but you would have had a fight on your hands.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I think you would have won, but you would have had a fight on your hands.
    Yeah I do not have the time or money for that. This is kind of a reason why I'm happy I have out of state carry permits. If I somehow, for whatever reason, end up in a bad position of being on the premises of a place listed under 750.234d. I at least have some chance of being exempt. It's a definite gray area but it's better than going to court with well yeah I did it.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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