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Thread: Billy Club, as it pertains to Act 35

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    Regular Member The_Pennsylvanian's Avatar
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    Billy Club, as it pertains to Act 35

    I have been trying to find a legal definition by the DOJ as to what constitutes as a "Billy club". Do they mean an old school Monadnock police baton, a lead filled leather sap or "blackjack", a "hickory tire knocker" that one can pick up a virtually any truckstop, or one of those collapsible or folding batons that police carry ? I would be interest mostly in the latter.

    I have had no luck finding a particular cite on this matter. Can anyone help me out, please ?

  2. #2
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    The phrase "billy club" occurs once in the Wisconsin Statutes, at §175.60(1)(j). Absent a statutory definition then I ANAL expect some rule of construction to dictate the common meaning.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_club

    Maybe there is some case law, but I do not have access. Splitting hairs of lead or hickory won't do any good.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 12-23-2011 at 11:56 AM.

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Since we are talking about concealed carry of a billy club, that may provide a beginning of the definition of what it is or isn't; although I suppose you could stuff a baseball bat down a pant leg if you really wanted to carry one badly enough.... Of course there is no law I am aware of that prevents us from carrying Maglites, tactical flashlights, or using a cane. You might even hide a full size Espantoon up your sleeve to really surprise a bad guy. Sounds like there might be many answers to the question, but like every other weapon they would all require training and practice to use effectively.
    Dave
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    http://definitions.uslegal.com/b/billy-club/

    As I read this. Example: A cops night stick would be considered a billy club because it is dessigned and configured for the purpose of inflicting pain and/or injury. A baseball bat(i.e. one of those small souvineer types) would not be considered a billy club because it's designed purpose is for benign use. It would not be controlled by 175.60 and could be carried hidden, without a CCL. However if used for the purpose of intentionally inflicting injury and/or pain on another person it could be classified as a deadly weapon as applied. In that case the hidden carry of it would not be unlawful but the use of it outside it's normal application would be considered unlawful. The same would be true of a walking stick. Although it might be somewhat difficult to conceal a walking stick.

    Remember IANL and this is just my opinion.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 12-24-2011 at 01:02 AM.

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    ....The same would be true of a walking stick. Although it might be somewhat difficult to conceal a walking stick.

    ....
    A walking stick is just a walking stick and doesn't require concealment; but if a bad guy comes after me I am going to use any tool at my disposal to defend myself. The fact that it has a carbide point on one end and a 2" hickory ball on the other just makes it a better walking stick.... The same goes for a cane with a heavy brass knob for a handle.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

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    Regular Member thieltech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    A walking stick is just a walking stick and doesn't require concealment; but if a bad guy comes after me I am going to use any tool at my disposal to defend myself. The fact that it has a carbide point on one end and a 2" hickory ball on the other just makes it a better walking stick.... The same goes for a cane with a heavy brass knob for a handle.
    HAHA SOME GOOD POINTS . a tool is anything that gets the job DONE !

  7. #7
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Hence the etymological roots of hoplophobia.

    Hoplon may be an aspis, a round shield, but is more properly and generally
    1. tool,
    2. instrument
    3. a ship's tackle,
    4. rope
    5. instruments of war: arms, armour, weapon
    6. specifically the large shield carried by hoplites
    7. penis
    8. a gymnastics exercise


    ETA: and the root in Greek is ἕπω "I am busy"
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 12-24-2011 at 05:01 PM.

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    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    Years ago when I was driving truck...

    ...there was an issue as to whether or not a "tire bob", or club had a tether. If it could not be knocked out of your hand was the concern, and defined it's purpose. Tethered, it could be considered a weapon in some states.

    For the purpose of fighting, I want a tether. The club can be released allowing a free hand and still maintain retention of the club. boar out.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

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    Regular Member The_Pennsylvanian's Avatar
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    Sooo . . . apparently there is no precedent for someone carrying a billy club in WI . was thinking of picking up one of those collapsible batons , like the ASP 21 , until I get my 1911 . I am ( sadly ) currently lacking in the sidearm department . I was wondering if carrying one of those ( the ASP ) is legal now per Act 35 . I would sure hate to be the test case , though .

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Pennsylvanian View Post
    Sooo . . . apparently there is no precedent for someone carrying a billy club in WI . was thinking of picking up one of those collapsible batons , like the ASP 21 , until I get my 1911 . I am ( sadly ) currently lacking in the sidearm department . I was wondering if carrying one of those ( the ASP ) is legal now per Act 35 . I would sure hate to be the test case , though .
    IANAL, but if it is a striking weapon and you can conceal it, I believe you have passed all the tests....

    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  11. #11
    Regular Member The_Pennsylvanian's Avatar
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    Pretty much what I was thinking , Dave .

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Pennsylvanian View Post
    Sooo . . . apparently there is no precedent for someone carrying a billy club in WI . was thinking of picking up one of those collapsible batons , like the ASP 21 , until I get my 1911 . I am ( sadly ) currently lacking in the sidearm department . I was wondering if carrying one of those ( the ASP ) is legal now per Act 35 . I would sure hate to be the test case , though .
    Your initial question is not yet clear to me.

    Do you have a Wisconsin Concealed Carry License?

    If you only look at Act 35, you may not be getting a complete picture of the current law.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tes/941/III/23

    941.23(2) Any person, other than one of the following, who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor:
    ...

    __ (d) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the dangerous weapon is a weapon, as defined under s. 175.60 (1) (j). An individual formerly licensed under s. 175.60 whose license has been suspended or revoked under s. 175.60 (14) may not assert his or her refusal to accept a notice of revocation or suspension mailed under s. 175.60 (14) (b) 1. as a defense to prosecution under this subsection, regardless of whether the person has complied with s. 175.60 (11) (b) 1.

    __ (e) An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies.
    There is another statute that may apply if a crime is committed, regardless of whether the dangerous weapon is concealed or not.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...utes/939/IV/63

    939.63  Penalties; use of a dangerous weapon.

    _(1) If a person commits a crime while possessing, using or threatening to use a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment prescribed by law for that crime may be increased as follows:
    Many other prohibitions on carrying a dangerous weapon, based on WHERE... such as courthouses, taverns, posted buildings/grounds, also may apply.
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

  13. #13
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Wisconsin Statutes 175.60(1)(j) “Weapon” means a handgun, an electric weapon,... a knife other than a switchblade knife ..., or a billy club. A billy club is not a weapon and is prohibited just as is a switchblade. A billy club is not further defined in Wisconsin Statutes, where a switchblade is broadly defined.

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    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    What needs to be done...

    ...Is pressure the DOJ for laws that can be interpreted by the public.

    When we applied to the state we all said; with signatures, that we understood the laws. Now we sit, bent over our keypads and ask peter what paul thinks. Peter isn't going to get your a$$ out of jail. We need to demand laws for public consumption before we're incarcerated for ignorance. boar out.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

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    Lighten up Davegran my comment concerning the wolking stick was in jest. The isue is what can be considered a billy club and what restrictions do ss941.23 and 175.60 place on it. Certainly the open carry of a walking stick is lawful and except those that contain a spring knife or can discharge a bullet there is no restrictions on a walking sticks configuration.

    The question I have is what is the litteral and legal interpretation of the following statute excerpts. Do they apply to only those 4 specific dangerous weapons as defined in 175.60 or do they apply to any item applied outside it's normal intent and used, or attempted to be used, to inflict pain on another person.


    941.23(2) Any person, other than one of the following, who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor:
    ...

    __ (d) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the dangerous weapon is a weapon, as defined under s. 175.60 (1) (j). An individual formerly licensed under s. 175.60 whose license has been suspended or revoked under s. 175.60 (14) may not assert his or her refusal to accept a notice of revocation or suspension mailed under s. 175.60 (14) (b) 1. as a defense to prosecution under this subsection, regardless of whether the person has complied with s. 175.60 (11) (b) 1.

    __ (e) An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies.



    Definition of weapon as contained in 175.60.
    (j) "Weapon" means a handgun, an electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a), a knife other than a switchblade knife under s. 941.24, or a billy club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Wisconsin Statutes 175.60(1)(j) “Weapon” means a handgun, an electric weapon,... a knife other than a switchblade knife ..., or a billy club. A billy club is not a weapon and is prohibited just as is a switchblade. A billy club is not further defined in Wisconsin Statutes, where a switchblade is broadly defined.
    Here is the complete cite defining the term "Weapon" for section 175.60
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tes/175/60/1/j

    175.60(1)(j) "Weapon" means a handgun, an electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a), a knife other than a switchblade knife under s. 941.24, or a billy club.
    After that citation, what logic prompts your next phrase?

    A billy club is not a weapon and is prohibited just as is a switchblade.

    Are you just diagreeing with the statute?
    Last edited by E6chevron; 12-25-2011 at 09:26 PM.
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  17. #17
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Nope. Just got lost in or's inclusive and exclusive and commas.

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    Followup of my previous post which is numbered 15.
    If a person carries a length of water pipe hidden on his person what is the consequence. By law definition it is not a billy club because it design intent was not to inflict injury. I suppose if it had tape wrapped around one end as a type of a grip it could be considered a billy club. Barring that, it's intended use is to transfer liquids or other flowable material and the pipe certainly isn't a handgun, a knife or an electric weapon. If applied outside it's intended use to inflict injury it can be defined as a dangerous weapon, but can the actor be charged with going armed with a dangerous and concealed weapon under the current language of ss941.23 and 175.60. Just what is the reach of those stautes concerning dangerous weapons.

    The situation gets even murkier when you interject Article I section 25.
    What is the intent of the phrase ---keep and bear arms---? What is meant by "arms"?
    It doesn't read ---keep and bear weapons-----.

    Thank you!! LRB.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 12-25-2011 at 10:06 PM.

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    This definition applies as stated in the beginning of the 939.22 and it is used by the 941.23 (crime of carrying a concealed weapon) statute, except where the statute specifically limits the meaning.

    939.22  Words and phrases defined. In chs. 939 to 948 and 951, the following words and phrases have the designated meanings unless the context of a specific section manifestly requires a different construction or the word or phrase is defined in s. 948.01 for purposes of ch. 948:
    ...
    _ (10) "Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm; any ligature or other instrumentality used on the throat, neck, nose, or mouth of another person to impede, partially or completely, breathing or circulation of blood; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.
    Of all the weapons that would be included in the above definition of Dangerous weapon, in 941.23(2)(d) and 941.23(2)(e) only 4 categories 175.60(1)(j) are specifically allowed for WI/OS licensees or people in personal/occupied dwellings, place of business or land.

    It is a crime to carry concealed, a LOT of different weapons. A few weapons are allowed to be carried concealed IF you have a CCL or in/on certain private property.
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Nope. Just got lost in or's inclusive and exclusive and commas.
    Understood. been there, done that.
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    E6chevron. Are you a lawyer?

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Some interesting history and observations on billy clubs.
    These impact weapons are a rarity in law enforcement these days, with many agencies nationwide getting rid of them over the years in response to allegations of police brutality and lawsuits. Other large police departments concluded the weapons weren't effective and banned them in favor of batons.
    Dave
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    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

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    Regular Member The_Pennsylvanian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post

    Do you have a Wisconsin Concealed Carry License?

    Fixed , see sig .
    WI CCL # 27,4XX

  24. #24
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post
    ...there was an issue as to whether or not a "tire bob", or club had a tether. If it could not be knocked out of your hand was the concern, and defined it's purpose. Tethered, it could be considered a weapon in some states.

    For the purpose of fighting, I want a tether. The club can be released allowing a free hand and still maintain retention of the club. boar out.
    Against someone with skill (FMA) a club with a tether is a bad idea.

    A couple thoughts.
    1. Train with a blunt weapon, various lengths, but don't carry - there are opportune items lying all around you. (Rolled up magazine, tree branch, etc.) It's the training and reflexes, NOT the weapon;
    2. For people with tough jobs who need an 'edge' there are a lot of ways. Wear a long leather gauntlet, like a wrist brace. Sew lightweight aluminum struts inside your sleeve (using a thin inner sleeve so they can be removed) and use those to block, parry or strike;
    3. Use tactical objects with non-obvious uses, like a cane, tactical umbrella (google), musical baton, long Phillips screwdriver, metal ruler, coins in a sock to avoid detection and prosecution;
    4. Consider that being charged with having these things are often used as 'pile on' charges if you are a bad actor. Average nice guy with a knife - no problem. BG with a sharpened screwdriver - problem;
    5. The best 'weapon' is SA, practice, and the three S's rule.

    Don't know if this solves your problem, but an idiot with a club is still an idiot - it's your intent, training, moral high ground.

    $.02
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  25. #25
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    Mr Johnson:

    I would conceder any close encounter against the discipline of MA a bad idea. As far as clubs go, one would not be my first choice for hand to hand. A empty pistol is more easily controlled, and effective. Lets be careful out there, boar out.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

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