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Thread: VA Open Carry in car: clarification

  1. #1
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    VA Open Carry in car: clarification

    Hi everyone,

    I have a question about open carry in va. When I hop in my car do I keep it in the holster on my belt which is going to be on my right hip next to the seat belt buckle. What do you do take the gun out of the holster or undo your belt and take the holster off keeping the gun it and place the holster on the seat.

    I would prefer for security to keep the gun in the retention holster on my belt, that way it won't go anywhere in a panic stop and as soon as I step out of my vehicle the gun is where it belongs on my belt.

    Appreciate the comments. THanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pjsmith67 View Post
    Hi everyone,

    I have a question about open carry in va. When I hop in my car do I keep it in the holster on my belt which is going to be on my right hip next to the seat belt buckle. What do you do take the gun out of the holster or undo your belt and take the holster off keeping the gun it and place the holster on the seat.

    I would prefer for security to keep the gun in the retention holster on my belt, that way it won't go anywhere in a panic stop and as soon as I step out of my vehicle the gun is where it belongs on my belt.

    Appreciate the comments. THanks.
    I don't do anything. I keep my firearm holstered on my hip. And your post is pretty hard to comprehend. If you are asking a question, try using a question mark (or two).

  3. #3
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Need more info. With a CHL/CHP, you don't need to be concerned about where your pistol is (loaded, visible, or whatever) when in the car. With no permit, you'll have to check further. See handgunlaw.us for info.

    As of July 1, 2010, a concealed handgun permit is not necessary when carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.
    It's open for some discussion if a proper holster with retention is 'secured'. It's paramount that you have it 'secured' from becoming a missile if you have an accident, imo.

    Cite:
    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Transporting.shtm

    HTH and welcome to OCDO
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 12-23-2011 at 01:02 PM.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    I don't do anything. I keep my firearm holstered on my hip. And your post is pretty hard to comprehend. If you are asking a question, try using a question mark (or two).
    Sorry about all that. Typing on a mobile device tends to do that (at least it wasn't all caps)

    Thank you for your answer. In reading the law it was not clear that open carry in a car meant in your holster. In the holster is what makes the most sense.

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    Thus my question. I ask in the context of VA Open Carry and specifically inside a vehicle. Do you meet the requirement of in plain view inside a vehicle if your gun is in it's holster on your hip?

    Thanks in advance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Need more info. With a CHL/CHP, you don't need to be concerned about where your pistol is (loaded, visible, or whatever) when in the car. With no permit, you'll have to check further. See handgunlaw.us for info.



    It's open for some discussion if a proper holster with retention is 'secured'. It's paramount that you have it 'secured' from becoming a missile if you have an accident, imo.

    Cite:
    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Transporting.shtm

    HTH and welcome to OCDO

  6. #6
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjsmith67 View Post
    Thus my question. I ask in the context of VA Open Carry and specifically inside a vehicle. Do you meet the requirement of in plain view inside a vehicle if your gun is in it's holster on your hip?

    Thanks in advance.
    Read more here:

    http://maps.opencarry.org/forums/sho...ip-in-my-Jeep&

    (this forum)
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    You may, and it is best, to keep your firearm in your holster while driving. This is the safest place for it and keeps it available to you should you have to exit quickly or put it to use. Carrying in this manner is not concealing it as long as it is openly visible (you haven't moved a shirt tale or jacket over it or something else). You should be fine.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    If I'm understanding you, you are concerned that the seat-belt may be covering a part of the sidearm while it is buckled. As long as it is not concealed as to hide its true nature, should be fine.

    Otherwise, just holster it and buckle up. A lot of folks like retention based holsters here, myself included.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO.

    There is nothing in Virginia law that would require you to adjust your holster or remove your handgun from the holster while OCing in your automobile. Folks have been buckling up over their holstered handgun for years with no problems encountered.

    Badger, who says he supports OC but has reasons for not doing it himself, tried mightily to confuse the issue by bringing up recent changes in the laws regarding concealed carry. Pay no attention to his post as it will only make you wonder if he knows what the subject of the thread even was - and life's too short to waste time doing that.

    If you are not a member of VCDL I encourage you to become one ASAP. There will be several folks at Lobby Day (Monday, Jan 16th, at the General Assembly Building in downtown Richmond) who will have application forms as well as pocket cards with the most relevant gun laws, and most will also have some version of the OC laws business-card. If you can't wait till Lobby Day, go to www.vcdl.org and join from there. Or you could go to the OC breakfast tomorrow - see http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...shburn-VA-0930 for details. Ed will most likely have application forms and both types of cards.

    But regardless, come to Lobby Day if you can.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Skidmark,

    Thanks, that definitely gave me the answer that I was after.

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Welcome to OCDO.

    There is nothing in Virginia law that would require you to adjust your holster or remove your handgun from the holster while OCing in your automobile. Folks have been buckling up over their holstered handgun for years with no problems encountered.

    Badger, who says he supports OC but has reasons for not doing it himself, tried mightily to confuse the issue by bringing up recent changes in the laws regarding concealed carry. Pay no attention to his post as it will only make you wonder if he knows what the subject of the thread even was - and life's too short to waste time doing that.

    If you are not a member of VCDL I encourage you to become one ASAP. There will be several folks at Lobby Day (Monday, Jan 16th, at the General Assembly Building in downtown Richmond) who will have application forms as well as pocket cards with the most relevant gun laws, and most will also have some version of the OC laws business-card. If you can't wait till Lobby Day, go to www.vcdl.org and join from there. Or you could go to the OC breakfast tomorrow - see http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...shburn-VA-0930 for details. Ed will most likely have application forms and both types of cards.

    But regardless, come to Lobby Day if you can.

    stay safe.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Badger, who says he supports OC but has reasons for not doing it himself, tried mightily to confuse the issue by bringing up recent changes in the laws regarding concealed carry. Pay no attention to his post as it will only make you wonder if he knows what the subject of the thread even was - and life's too short to waste time doing that.
    And Skid doesn't mean to be contentious, will waste your time getting in digs at other members of the forum for no good reason. Thanks, buddy.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    And Skid doesn't mean to be contentious, will waste your time getting in digs at other members of the forum for no good reason. Thanks, buddy.
    With all due respect, and I do try to respect all members here... Skid is right, the OP asks about open carry, and you went down a dark alley that was not at all related to the question.

    It's commonly accepted, at least here on OCDO in the Virginia forum, that "open carry" is "open carry" without regard to where one may be standing to view the gun. Or in other words, it's OC if it's visible, if one takes the effort to look. That is what the OP is asking, and that is the answer.

    v/r,

    TFred

    ETA: Of course, one must always remember that you can be arrested for anything at any time by a LEO who has an attitude. This is not something that is confined to OC issues.
    Last edited by TFred; 12-23-2011 at 05:36 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Badger knows all that TFred, he's just playing his usual games. It's probably a little slow under the bridge today.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I will have OC cards at breakfast tomorrow
    Carry On.

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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Regular Member SirTiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    You guys can discuss this thing until you're blue in the face. But nothing, including law, is going to prevent some snot nosed police rookie from saying the weapon was concealed from his view by the position of the driver's body and seatbelt. After the (false) arrest, it's all up to the judge.

    Does anybody have any case law on this question? I would love to see it.
    Wearing a seatbelt is not a different situation then sitting in a booth at Burger King, or even leaning on a wall. C'mon duh!

  16. #16
    Regular Member SirTiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    You and I know that!

    But read what I said again. The key word is "rookie".
    So what? Another opportunity to make some money for yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    You guys can discuss this thing until you're blue in the face. But nothing, including law, is going to prevent some snot nosed police rookie from saying the weapon was concealed from his view by the position of the driver's body and seatbelt. After the (false) arrest, it's all up to the judge.

    Does anybody have any case law on this question? I would love to see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by SirTiger View Post
    Wearing a seatbelt is not a different situation then sitting in a booth at Burger King, or even leaning on a wall. C'mon duh!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    You and I know that!

    But read what I said again. The key word is "rookie".
    Are Badger and Sheriff joined at the head? (Was going to ask if they were thinking alike but decided they were/are not thinking at all.)

    Any cop, with any amount of time on the force, can display any amount of negative attitude, at any time, for any (or no) reason.

    If you are going to go around not doing stuff (like OCing) because some cop could decide that the fact that they could not see your handgun OC'd on your hip from where the cop was positioned and therefore arrest you for concealed carry with no CHP, then I suggest that you just not bother crawling out from under the covers where you are hiding because there might be a monster under the bed.

    Either that or go out and buy a Lotto ticket because you could win the jackpot.

    Personally, I like to make my decisions about what to do based on what is the most probable outcome as opposed to worrying about what the worst possible outcome might be and avoiding it by just not doing anything that has any bad possible outcomes. Given the state of science these days, it is possible that I could become pregnant. It's just not probable that will happen. So I don't obsess about getting pregnant, just like I don't obsess about getting busted for concealed carry without a CHP because some cop could not see my handgun from where they were standing.

    Obviously, mileage does vary for some others.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    It's a slow day...

    ...lets see what this stirs up!

    Scenario: You're OCing, but in a fashion such as the OP describes, not plainly visible, but not "hidden from common observation" as the law provides. Snot-nosed LEO happens upon you, after a few minutes, does notice your gun. Turns into Mr. Know-it-All-LEO, demands to see your CHP.

    You do have CHP in your wallet. You point out you are not carrying concealed, and do not reveal that you hold CHP. Discussion goes on for some time about no need for CHP when openly carrying, etc... LEO hinting at arrest.

    Test question: Do you eventually reveal CHP to LEO?

    Hmmmm..... Popcorn!?

    TFred

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    ...Do you eventually reveal CHP to LEO?

    Hmmmm..... Popcorn!?

    TFred
    Been there, done that.
    I have never shown my CHP to LE.
    Been asked if I have one a few times, but I never answer that question or any that I'm not required to.

    If LE runs the reg owner of my cars it tells them nothing about me.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    ...lets see what this stirs up!

    Scenario: You're OCing, but in a fashion such as the OP describes, not plainly visible, but not "hidden from common observation" as the law provides. Snot-nosed LEO happens upon you, after a few minutes, does notice your gun. Turns into Mr. Know-it-All-LEO, demands to see your CHP.

    You do have CHP in your wallet. You point out you are not carrying concealed, and do not reveal that you hold CHP. Discussion goes on for some time about no need for CHP when openly carrying, etc... LEO hinting at arrest.

    Test question: Do you eventually reveal CHP to LEO?

    Hmmmm..... Popcorn!?

    TFred
    No! Actually I'd have cut the discussion off at I'm not CCing.

    His move. Far more people get in trouble trying to convince a Cop they are right. If he had PC, he'd have already arrested me.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    Sorry, I didn't mean to create such a thought provoking discussion. All I intended to say is the fact a person can be right as rain. But as Peter Nap says, far more people get in trouble trying to convince a cop they are right. I say let the snot nosed rookie do as he wishes. And hope that the magistrate has a little better sense. I have seen more than one cop leave a magistrate's office wondering what just happened to his charges and what comes next.
    Most of the cases I get are due to errors on the part of law enforcement.

    It's too bad that magistrates aren't required to be attorneys in Virginia; some are pretty good, but very few actually know what they're doing, and most "rubber stamp" whatever a cop wants to do. I had a case in Loudoun Co. recently, in which a sheriff's deputy had arrested a young man for carrying a concealed weapon because he had it "secured in a compartment in his vehicle." He was present when the magistrate told the deputy point-blank, that's perfectly legal under 18.2-308, but the deputy insisted on the arrest, so the magistrate issued the warrant, obviously having actual knowledge at the time that the warrant was invalid for lack of probable cause (the definition of "legal malice").

    And as to attempting to justify one's actions to a law enforcement officer, well, if they didn't have probable cause before the defendant started talking, they certainly did have it as a result of his having started blathering. Some of their roadside interrogation techniques are designed specifically to challenge a person to start attempting to defend himself verbally.

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    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    What is the root cause of all of this?

    To me it's NOT the beat LEO. It's their training, lack of empowerment, enabling bad behavior from above and among other LEOs, seeing civilians as perps, a culture of violence and immersion in the criminal milieu. And, this comes from the TOP down, imo.

    The top management from the mayor to the judges to the chiefs could easily stop this by:
    1. Changing hiring practices;
    2. Top mgmt doing their job, setting good examples (instead of being a power or political junkie);
    3. Spreading some of the wealth around (education, training ops, seminars);
    4. Punishing bad behavior. Not sweeping things under the rug;
    5. Getting rid of loose cannons (which departments use as 'heavies);
    6. Hiring more people with law backgrounds and upping salaries;
    7. Have a civilian oversight board;
    8. Treating people with kindness and avoiding 'us vs them' mentality - visualize someone as your friend's child not as the enemy (as per traffic politeness);
    ...and so on.

    The question is, do they really WANT to be better. In many cases it's all about the elitism, sadly.

    $.02
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    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  23. #23
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    The intent on the street now is to get anybody who questions their authority or talks back to them mad enough to go physical with 'em. It's a guaranteed 6 months in jail. And it's quite a trophy in the bragging rights arena. If you were to tell a judge they sit around joking and laughing about this foolishness, he/she would never believe it.
    Sorry, but I'm calling BS on that one. I don't know what kind of department you worked for, but that is ridiculous.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Sorry, but I'm calling BS on that one. I don't know what kind of department you worked for, but that is ridiculous.
    Sadly, it makes sense, because those who are not empowered exhibit all kinds of compensatory behavior. Similar behavior is found in mobs.

    Some people would never joke about some things, but get them in a group of guys who are yucking it up about stuff and they'll probably join in, just to be part of the group. For example all the gay congressmen who sponsor/support/joke about gay rights. Get a gay cop in a room of homophobic cops telling sordid jokes and he'll join in, despite himself. It's mob behavior.

    Individually, a person would probably stand up against such Non-PC things, such as racism and ageism and gender-equality, bullying, but in a group, they're right in the middle of it.

    Empower the line officers, I say. Training, classes, attention, help, good equipment and pay and a lot of this stuff will be reduced.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  25. #25
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Thing is it's not the LEOs. It's human nature. You put people in situations like this, expose them to the seedy side of life and they adapt or die. They have to become like the criminals they'd arrest. Winston Churchill said it - you have to be willing to be more vicious than the enemy. Couple this with low pay, poor support, bad equipment and you reduce people to the lowest common behavior.

    There is no magical moral formula where you elevate a person and say 'we expect more of you, higher standards' and then screw them around and expect they're going to be wearing halos.

    Cops bring in a BG, courts release them and many times, while they're at it, manage to diss the cops, and you end up with an adversarial relationship. Now...who understands what a cop goes through? Anyone? THE CRIMINALS. They identify with each other to some degree.

    So the cop learns about the street and they hand out street justice and you and I (as civilians, obeying the law) are just collateral damage a lot of the time.

    $.02
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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