VA Open Carry in car: clarification

It's a slow day...

...lets see what this stirs up!

Scenario: You're OCing, but in a fashion such as the OP describes, not plainly visible, but not "hidden from common observation" as the law provides. Snot-nosed LEO happens upon you, after a few minutes, does notice your gun. Turns into Mr. Know-it-All-LEO, demands to see your CHP.

You do have CHP in your wallet. You point out you are not carrying concealed, and do not reveal that you hold CHP. Discussion goes on for some time about no need for CHP when openly carrying, etc... LEO hinting at arrest.

Test question: Do you eventually reveal CHP to LEO?

Hmmmm..... Popcorn!?

TFred

TFred said:

...Do you eventually reveal CHP to LEO?

Hmmmm..... Popcorn!?

TFred

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Been there, done that.
I have never shown my CHP to LE.
Been asked if I have one a few times, but I never answer that question or any that I'm not required to.

If LE runs the reg owner of my cars it tells them nothing about me.

TFred said:

...lets see what this stirs up!

Scenario: You're OCing, but in a fashion such as the OP describes, not plainly visible, but not "hidden from common observation" as the law provides. Snot-nosed LEO happens upon you, after a few minutes, does notice your gun. Turns into Mr. Know-it-All-LEO, demands to see your CHP.

You do have CHP in your wallet. You point out you are not carrying concealed, and do not reveal that you hold CHP. Discussion goes on for some time about no need for CHP when openly carrying, etc... LEO hinting at arrest.

Test question: Do you eventually reveal CHP to LEO?

Hmmmm..... Popcorn!?

TFred

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No! Actually I'd have cut the discussion off at I'm not CCing.

His move. Far more people get in trouble trying to convince a Cop they are right. If he had PC, he'd have already arrested me.

Sheriff said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to create such a thought provoking discussion. All I intended to say is the fact a person can be right as rain. But as Peter Nap says, far more people get in trouble trying to convince a cop they are right. I say let the snot nosed rookie do as he wishes. And hope that the magistrate has a little better sense. I have seen more than one cop leave a magistrate's office wondering what just happened to his charges and what comes next.

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Most of the cases I get are due to errors on the part of law enforcement.

It's too bad that magistrates aren't required to be attorneys in Virginia; some are pretty good, but very few actually know what they're doing, and most "rubber stamp" whatever a cop wants to do. I had a case in Loudoun Co. recently, in which a sheriff's deputy had arrested a young man for carrying a concealed weapon because he had it "secured in a compartment in his vehicle." He was present when the magistrate told the deputy point-blank, that's perfectly legal under 18.2-308, but the deputy insisted on the arrest, so the magistrate issued the warrant, obviously having actual knowledge at the time that the warrant was invalid for lack of probable cause (the definition of "legal malice").

And as to attempting to justify one's actions to a law enforcement officer, well, if they didn't have probable cause before the defendant started talking, they certainly did have it as a result of his having started blathering. Some of their roadside interrogation techniques are designed specifically to challenge a person to start attempting to defend himself verbally.

KYBMS

What is the root cause of all of this?

To me it's NOT the beat LEO. It's their training, lack of empowerment, enabling bad behavior from above and among other LEOs, seeing civilians as perps, a culture of violence and immersion in the criminal milieu. And, this comes from the TOP down, imo.

The top management from the mayor to the judges to the chiefs could easily stop this by:
1. Changing hiring practices;
2. Top mgmt doing their job, setting good examples (instead of being a power or political junkie);
3. Spreading some of the wealth around (education, training ops, seminars);
4. Punishing bad behavior. Not sweeping things under the rug;
5. Getting rid of loose cannons (which departments use as 'heavies);
6. Hiring more people with law backgrounds and upping salaries;
7. Have a civilian oversight board;
8. Treating people with kindness and avoiding 'us vs them' mentality - visualize someone as your friend's child not as the enemy (as per traffic politeness);
...and so on.

The question is, do they really WANT to be better. In many cases it's all about the elitism, sadly.

$.02

user said:

Some of their roadside interrogation techniques are designed specifically to challenge a person to start attempting to defend himself verbally. KYBMS

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Not entirely correct, the verbal part I mean. I have been on the front lines. I have been in the locker room joke and tell sessions. As you know, the law was changed a while back to make it a felony with mandatory jail time of 6 months for striking a cop. The intent on the street now is to get anybody who questions their authority or talks back to them mad enough to go physical with 'em. It's a guaranteed 6 months in jail. And it's quite a trophy in the bragging rights arena. If you were to tell a judge they sit around joking and laughing about this foolishness, he/she would never believe it.

Sheriff said:

The intent on the street now is to get anybody who questions their authority or talks back to them mad enough to go physical with 'em. It's a guaranteed 6 months in jail. And it's quite a trophy in the bragging rights arena. If you were to tell a judge they sit around joking and laughing about this foolishness, he/she would never believe it.

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Sorry, but I'm calling BS on that one. I don't know what kind of department you worked for, but that is ridiculous.

ProShooter said:

Sorry, but I'm calling BS on that one. I don't know what kind of department you worked for, but that is ridiculous.

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Sadly, it makes sense, because those who are not empowered exhibit all kinds of compensatory behavior. Similar behavior is found in mobs.

Some people would never joke about some things, but get them in a group of guys who are yucking it up about stuff and they'll probably join in, just to be part of the group. For example all the gay congressmen who sponsor/support/joke about gay rights. Get a gay cop in a room of homophobic cops telling sordid jokes and he'll join in, despite himself. It's mob behavior.

Individually, a person would probably stand up against such Non-PC things, such as racism and ageism and gender-equality, bullying, but in a group, they're right in the middle of it.

Empower the line officers, I say. Training, classes, attention, help, good equipment and pay and a lot of this stuff will be reduced.

ProShooter said:

Sorry, but I'm calling BS on that one. I don't know what kind of department you worked for, but that is ridiculous.

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Well, believe what you want.

Here's a video where they high five each other after dishing out a dose of street justice. One again, cops caught on a video tape, they never even thought about there being a video recorder present. Both cops fired. And yet you don't think they joke and laugh about this stuff in locker rooms?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqtq7zEmu4Q

Thing is it's not the LEOs. It's human nature. You put people in situations like this, expose them to the seedy side of life and they adapt or die. They have to become like the criminals they'd arrest. Winston Churchill said it - you have to be willing to be more vicious than the enemy. Couple this with low pay, poor support, bad equipment and you reduce people to the lowest common behavior.

There is no magical moral formula where you elevate a person and say 'we expect more of you, higher standards' and then screw them around and expect they're going to be wearing halos.

Cops bring in a BG, courts release them and many times, while they're at it, manage to diss the cops, and you end up with an adversarial relationship. Now...who understands what a cop goes through? Anyone? THE CRIMINALS. They identify with each other to some degree.

So the cop learns about the street and they hand out street justice and you and I (as civilians, obeying the law) are just collateral damage a lot of the time.

$.02

Badger Johnson said:

Thing is it's not the LEOs. It's human nature. You put people in situations like this, expose them to the seedy side of life and they adapt or die. They have to become like the criminals they'd arrest. Winston Churchill said it - you have to be willing to be more vicious than the enemy. Couple this with low pay, poor support, bad equipment and you reduce people to the lowest common behavior.

There is no magical moral formula where you elevate a person and say 'we expect more of you, higher standards' and then screw them around and expect they're going to be wearing halos.

Cops bring in a BG, courts release them and many times, while they're at it, manage to diss the cops, and you end up with an adversarial relationship. Now...who understands what a cop goes through? Anyone? THE CRIMINALS. They identify with each other to some degree.

So the cop learns about the street and they hand out street justice and you and I (as civilians, obeying the law) are just collateral damage a lot of the time.

$.02

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How does one respond?

I guess that since there is no chance of police officers managing to retain respect and integrity, let alone any chance of their obeying the laws they have sworn to uphold, the only thing we (individually and collectively) can do is throw up our hands, say "**** it!" and join the anarchy.

I really wish someone had informed me of this when I was younger and in better health. I could have participated more vigorously and probably enjoyed myself more than I might be able to now.

stay safe.

Badger Johnson said:

Thing is it's not the LEOs. It's human nature. You put people in situations like this, expose them to the seedy side of life and they adapt or die. They have to become like the criminals they'd arrest. Winston Churchill said it - you have to be willing to be more vicious than the enemy. Couple this with low pay, poor support, bad equipment and you reduce people to the lowest common behavior.

There is no magical moral formula where you elevate a person and say 'we expect more of you, higher standards' and then screw them around and expect they're going to be wearing halos.

Cops bring in a BG, courts release them and many times, while they're at it, manage to diss the cops, and you end up with an adversarial relationship. Now...who understands what a cop goes through? Anyone? THE CRIMINALS. They identify with each other to some degree.

So the cop learns about the street and they hand out street justice and you and I (as civilians, obeying the law) are just collateral damage a lot of the time.

$.02

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Sorry, BJ, I'm not buying it. If what you describe was true, all of human society would have sunk to the lowest common denominator a very long time ago and would by this time be extinct, having killed off one another.

Your analysis totally discounts the vast majority of honest, moral, honorable and principled men and women in all fields of endeavor who do not let themselves be dragged down into the mire, and it *especially* disrespects the many examples of people who, having been born into poverty or mean conditions, have lifted themselves to excellent heights.

Your $.02 is way overpriced for what you wrote.

JamesCanby said:

Sorry, BJ, I'm not buying it. If what you describe was true, all of human society would have sunk to the lowest common denominator a very long time ago and would by this time be extinct, having killed off one another.

Your analysis totally discounts the vast majority of honest, moral, honorable and principled men and women in all fields of endeavor who do not let theselves be dragged down into the mire, and it *especially* disrespects the many examples of people who, having been born into poverty or mean conditions, have lifted themselves to excellent heights.

Your $.02 is way overpriced for what you wrote.

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This doesn't explain EVERYTHING. It explains why this might have happened. Human nature does have multi-facets. So, tell me how do you explain this video high-fiving cops. Incidentally, many people realize how the cops are not empowered leading to bad behaviors. (New Orleans had to replace the entire force, btw).

It might be more edifying to understand just how good cops are good in the face of all of this.

Some might ask, if a good cop saw this what would he do? If nothing, then he is no 'good cop'.

I do not like what some cops do, but I can understand it. I just don't want to judge them too harshly because in similar situations we can all show our true nature.

Badger Johnson said:

This doesn't explain EVERYTHING. It explains why this might have happened. Human nature does have multi-facets. So, tell me how do you explain this video high-fiving cops. Incidentally, many people realize how the cops are not empowered leading to bad behaviors. (New Orleans had to replace the entire force, btw).

It might be more edifying to understand just how good cops are good in the face of all of this.

Some might ask, if a good cop saw this what would he do? If nothing, then he is no 'good cop'.

I do not like what some cops do, but I can understand it. I just don't want to judge them too harshly because in similar situations we can all show our true nature.

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Sorry, you categorized the situation as being "human nature," which is to say that anyone being put into a bad situation will become bad themselves. In your rebuttal, you reiterate that "in similar situations we can all show our true nature." So, if I read you correctly, our "true nature" is one of sinking to the lowest morality or behavior ... and that's the part I can't and won't buy. History is far too full of examples of those who rise above mean or meagre conditions or who do not descend into the chaos of immoral behavoir just because they are surrounded by it.

Many people have dedicated and devoted their lives -- and have at time given their lives -- to defend honesty, morality and justice or to help others rise from the mire. To say that humanity's "true nature" is to return to the mire based on circumstances is to deny the essential goodness of humanity.

In direct answer to your question, I do not try to 'explain' the video you presented. One can always find examples of bad behavior. What one must NOT do is to generalize from a specific.

JamesCanby said:

Sorry, you categorized the situation as being "human nature," which is to say that anyone being put into a bad situation will become bad themselves. In your rebuttal, you reiterate that "in similar situations we can all show our true nature." So, if I read you correctly, our "true nature" is one of sinking to the lowest morality or behavior ... and that's the part I can't and won't buy. History is far too full of examples of those who rise above mean or meagre conditions or who do not descend into the chaos of immoral behavoir just because they are surrounded by it.

Many people have dedicated and devoted their lives -- and have at time given their lives -- to defend honesty, morality and justice or to help others rise from the mire. To say that humanity's "true nature" is to return to the mire based on circumstances is to deny the essential goodness of humanity.

In direct answer to your question, I do not try to 'explain' the video you presented. One can always find examples of bad behavior. What one must NOT do is to generalize from a specific.

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Thoughtful reply. Thanks.

OK, what is Human Nature? Is it based on a primitive reptile brain just barely held in control by the cerebral cortex and the limbic system? Look at "Lord of the Flies" for an example. We all (if we are not sociopaths) aspire to 'be of the good'. We can rise above if given the opportunity.

Who does not rise up? The extremes of intelligence (super criminal mastermind and at the other end a cro-mag type), the extremes of sociopathy (super moral people and super immoral people - Jim Bakker, Hitler).

There's only a narrow path to 'higher evolved' beings, with great moral clarity. Some people (War heroes have a lot of examples) when put understress shine. Others shoot their commanders and desert.

What causes or is behind this. I don't know, but I subscribe to the 'There for the grace of deity, go I' if put into high stress of the right kind.

My friend once said, after reading a lot of crime novels and profiler books and stuff, that "I suddenly realized walking out in society that I was surrounded by potential serial killers. My one thought was 'always be polite, never draw the laser of their attention on to myself'."

What I'm doing is supplying anecdotes, food for thought, not proof or even evidence of human nature. You have to ponder that yourself. Your HN is not my HN - that kind of thing.

To answer your second comment 'I don't try to explain...always find examples of bad behavior',

I think it is very important to try to explain and understand this behavior. If you can not understand it, you could fall victim to it.

The roots are in how LEOs are treated from ABOVE and below their authority. This theory fits the facts. It's modulated by the 'milieu' around the station, fellow officers, and Maslow's theory stuff.

You can fix the 'above' root causes. You can't 'fix' society.

(apologies for the serial posting).

I like the part where we answered the OPs question.

SirTiger said:

I like the part where we answered the OPs question.

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There was a question?