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Thread: Detained in Bremerton (for not consenting to vehicular search for shooter)

  1. #1
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    Detained in Bremerton (for not consenting to vehicular search for shooter)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=287HM-PpXl4

    http://www.facebook.com/NickSherwood

    Nick Sherwood is a gun owner, video camera owner, and Ron Paul supporter.

    Update:

    "A radio call indicated that the police had found there man so I was released. Unfortunately the cop that took our firearms had left the scene and we were going to his location to retrieve them, that's when I realized that a different officer had my driver's license."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaYkm...PfNCozAzzGQj6O
    Last edited by 44Brent; 12-24-2011 at 01:34 AM.

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    Post is off-topic. Doesn't comport with the rules of the OCDO message forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Post is off-topic. Doesn't comport with the rules of the OCDO message forum.
    Apparently, you read the headline but didn't watch the video all the way to the end before you pulled the trigger on the Submit Reply button.

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    I watched the whole thing. Make your case.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    This happened in 1974? I wonder what would have happened if you would have called 911 and asked for a stater because you were being held hostage against your will?
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    I wonder what would have happened if you would have called 911 and asked for a stater because you were being held hostage against your will?


    Nothing. The State Patrol has no authority to override the strategic or tactical decisions of a county deputy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    This happened in 1974? I wonder what would have happened if you would have called 911 and asked for a stater because you were being held hostage against your will?
    If didn't happen in 1974. It occurred today.

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    This is no where near Bremerton, its Belfair in Mason County, that looks to be Sandhill road I think. That is Mason County that is detaining him there not Kitsap or Bremerton PD, and there is nothing that WSP can really do here. He did the right thing, not consenting to the search, and making them get a warrant. I had a trooper casually ask me on a traffic stop if he could look in the trunk. I told him to get a warrant, then sure... he can look all he wants. I did ask on what grounds he thought that a judge would grant a warrant on a simple traffic stop for speeding, and he answered that my refusal would be good enough for a warrant. I sat there while he did his thing, he came back told me to slow down and have a good day. It amazes me how many people do the "I have nothing to hide" things and just give up their rights.

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    Regular Member HK_dave's Avatar
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    the topic police could have gotten a warrant...
    US Constitution - void where prohibited by law.

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    wowwie!!

    so Im wondering,,, is nick 44brent?
    the guy in the vid looks familiar,,, wonder if we have met? I do my shopping in belfair...
    you got stopped at the bottom of sand hill road where it meets north shore road.
    then you drove to the intersection with old belfair highway to get your guns back, the QFC store was behind you.
    then you drove to the safeway parking lot, and I was intrequed,,
    because I was in the liquior store at 7 pm, and its right in front of you when the recording stops,..

    Im proud of the way you took the time to stand up for your right against unreasonable search and seizure!!

    (PS) a funny thought,,, they wanted to search your van to find a guy, they say you stopped to let out of your van..
    maybe they should search the area that you stopped at?

    Way too many people just give in to the demands of the cops because they are in a hurry,
    and they think that by giving in, that they will be freed to go on thier way faster.

    What they dont realize is that soon,
    they will get stopped and searched so often,
    they wont be freed to get anywhere in a hurry,
    anymore!

    Deputies investigating possible Belfair shooting Updated 12/23/2011 at 7:12 p.m.
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 12-24-2011 at 09:01 AM.
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    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    3:40 "Do you have a gun?"
    "Yes, I'm armed" and suddenly the camera is jostled. Let me guess... he's pushed up against the vehicle and disarmed?


    Yep.

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    so Im wondering,,, is nick 44brent?
    Nick and I are not the same person.

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    Regular Member kwiebe's Avatar
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    I'm glad Nick stood up for himself. This was another sad commentary, though, on the intoxicating effects of a badge. Also sad were some of the YouTube comments which illustrated a complete misunderstanding of the relationship between rights and authority in a free society. But then again, I guess it's understandable since America has been slipping in that department for a few decades.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    For me this is way overboard and I would not have a problem letting an Officer look in my vehicle for someone that had just shot someone.
    I am not giving up my rights, I am how ever thinking of my fellow man and along with the fact I have nothing illegal in my vehicle nor on me.
    There is an old saying, "pick your battles wisely" as it may come back and bite you in the hind quarters.

    Many will resist any type of law enforcement encounter regardless if warranted or not and this video is they are looking for a perp that just shot his girlfriend. Do I want to help the perps escape, NO. By me letting them take a quick look inside my vehicle for an adult male, NO ISSUE HERE! In my view is not giving up my rights but assisting law enforcement in finding the perp.

    If they were not investigating or searching for a perp then I am all for, No I Do Not Consent To A Search With Out Probable Cause.

    Lets review, Police stopping all cars and taking a quick look in their vehicles because of a current investigation into a shooting in the immediate area, the two people starring in this video were stopped, detained, disarmed and inconvenienced and tying up resources to have his firearm returned later and do note, after his firearm was returned he did not reload and holster until sometime after the videos stopped. Being an important issue of legally carrying a firearm in the ready for protection, then why not reload and holster instead of placing into the console? What was gained in this?
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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    That officer told a lot of lies.

    AFAIK the courts have ruled that not consenting to a search, is not grounds for a warrant.

    And there were no grounds for a detainment, absent the vehicle matching a description of a suspects vehicle.

    Et cetera.

    But hey, they are allowed to lie.

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    I would not have a problem letting an Officer look in my vehicle for someone that had just shot someone.
    I would never voluntarily consent to letting the police search my vehicle under any circumstances, no matter how extreme. For example, if the police had set up a roadblock and told me that someone had just assassinated the President of the U.S., and they needed to check my trunk for the shooter, I would tell them to buzz off. Why would I refuse to consent?

    1) The police may be LYING! That's right, there's nothing in the world that prevents the police from giving you a false story. Perhaps they are really looking from someone who is suspected of blowing up a building, and they are looking for a bag of garden fertilizer used as an ingredient in a bombing. Congratulations, I just got tagged as a suspect because I was driving home with a bag of fertilizer from Home Depot in my trunk

    2) With all of the hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of laws on the books, how can I possibly known if I don't have possession of some item that hasn't been banned. For example, perhaps I am transporting shark fins, and in the process of searching for an alleged "shooter", the police come across some contraband and arrest me for something I didn't even know was illegal?

    3) The police sometimes outright steal vehicles from people under the guise of "asset forfeiture" and then personally keep the booty. Why would I want to give the police an opening to perform an "asset forfeiture"?

    If the police has reasonable suspicion that I have committed a crime, then they don't need to "ask" for my permission, they can just bust open my trunk and conduct a search. In the above described video, if the police truly believed a killer was hiding in the back of the van, then they should have surrounded the van with a SWAT team. But the fact that they didn't have a SWAT team surrounding the vehicle clearly shows they were simply conducting a fishing expedition.

    http://www.policecrimes.com/police.html

    Know Your Rights When Dealing With Police Officers

    A Police Officers Worst Enemy Is A Well Informed Citizen Who Knows Their Rights!

    Police officers hate to hear these words:

    "Am I free to go?"

    "I don't consent a search."

    "I'm going to remain silent."

    Your Rights During a Traffic Stop. Top Five (5) Things to Know About Protecting Yourself from the Police:

    #1 - Safety. The first thing is your safety! You want to put the police officer at ease. Pull over to a safe place, turn off your ignition, stay in the car and keep your hands on the steering wheel. At night turn on the interior lights. Keep your license, registration, and proof of insurance always close by.
    Build a trust with the police officer be a "good citizen" be courteous, stay calm, smile and don't complain. Show respect and say things like "sir and no sir." Never bad-mouth a police officer, stay in control of your words, body language and your emotions. Never touch a police officer and don't run away!

    #2 - Never Talk To A Police Officer. The only questions you need to answer is your name, address and date of birth and nothing else! Instead of telling the police officer who you are, simply give him your drivers license or I.D. card. All the information the police officer needs to know about you can be found on your drivers license. Don't volunteer any more information to the police officer, if he ask you any other questions politely say "Am I free to go?" and then don't say another word.

    #3 - I'm Going to Remain Silent. The Supreme Court has made a new ruling that you should Never Talk to a Police Officer without an attorney, but there's a CATCH! New Ruling Before you're allowed NOT to talk to a police officer, you must TELL the police officer "I'm Going to Remain Silent" and then keep your mouth shut! (How can you be falsely accused and charged if you don't say anything?) Anything you say or do can and will be used against you at any time by the police.

    #4 - Just Say NO to Police Searches! If a police officer didn't need your permission to search, he wouldn't be asking. Never give permission to a police officer to search you, your car or your home. If a police officer does search you, don't resist and keep saying "I don't consent to this search."

    #5 - "Am I Free to Go?" As soon as the police officer ask you a question ask him "Am I free to go?" You have to ask if you're "free to go," otherwise the police officer will think you are voluntarily staying. If the police officer says that you're are being detained or arrested, say to the police officer "I'm Going to Remain Silent"

    Anything You Say Can And Will Be Used Against You!

    Police officers need your permission to have a conversation, never give it to them!

    Never voluntarily talk to a police officer, there's no such thing as a "friendly chat" with a police officer. The Supreme Court has recently ruled that you should NOT talk to a police officer without a lawyer and you must say "I'm going to remain silent." It can be very dangerous to talk to a police officer or a Federal Agent. Innocent people have talked to a police officer and ended up in jail and prison, because they spoke to a police officer without an attorney.

    Police officers have the same right as you "Freedom of Speech," they can ask you anything they want, but you should never answer any of their questions. Don't let the police officer try and persuade you to talk! Say something like "I'm sorry, I don't have time to talk to you right now." If the cop insists on talking to you, ask him "Am I free to go?" The police officer may not like when you refuse to talk to him and challenge you with words like, "If you have nothing to hide, why won't you speak to me? Say again "I told you I don't have time to talk to you right now, Am I free to go?" If you forget or the police officer tricks you into talking, it's okay just start over again and tell the police officer "I'm going to remain silent."

    The Supreme Court has ruled that if a police officer doesn't force you to do something, then you're doing "voluntarily." That means if the police officer starts being intimidating and you do what he ask because you're "afraid," you still have done it voluntarily. (Florida v. Bostick, 1991) If you do what the police officer ask you to do such as allowing him to search your car or answer any of his questions, you are 'voluntarily' complying with his 'requests.' So don't comply, just keep your mouth shut unless you say "Am I Free to Go?" or "I don't consent to a search."

    You have every right NOT to talk to a police officer and you should NOT speak to a police officer unless you have first consulted with a lawyer who has advised you differently. Police officers depend on fear and intimidation to get what they want from you. Police officers might say they will "go easy" on you if you talk to them, but they're LIARS! The government has made a law that allows police officers to lie to the American public. Another reason not to trust the police! So be as nice as possible, but stand your ground on your rights! Where do some of your rights come from? Read the Fourth and Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

    Traffic Stops and Your Rights

    First of all keep your license, registration and proof of insurance in an easily accessible place such as attached to your sun visor. The less time it takes for you to get to these items, the less time the officer has to look through your windows and snoop. When pulled over by a police officer stay in the car, turn on the cab lights and keep your hands on the steering wheel. Sit still, relax and wait for the officer to come to you. Any sudden movements, ducking down, looking nervous or appearing to be searching for something under your seat is dangerous! Just sit up naturally be still and try to put the officer at ease."

    Police officers like to ask the first question and that usually is, "do you know the reason I pulled you over?" The police officer is trying to get you to do two things, admit that you committed a traffic violation and to get you to "voluntarily" start a conversation with him. Remember the police officer is not your friend and should not be trusted! The only thing you should say is "I'm going to remain silent and am I free to go?"

    The police officer might start asking you personal questions such as "where are you going, where have you been and who did you see, ect." At that point it's the perfect time to exercise your rights by asking the police officer "AM I FREE TO GO?" There is NO legal requirement that American citizens provide information about their comings and goings to a police officer. It's none of their damn business! Keep asking the police officers "AM I FREE TO GO?" You have to speak up and verbally ask the police officer if your allowed to leave, otherwise the courts will presume that you wanted to stay and talk to the cops on your own free will.

    Passengers in your vehicle need to know their rights as well. They have the same right not to talk to a police officer and the right to refuse a search "unless it's a 'pat down' for weapons." The police will usually separate the passengers from each other and ask questions to see if their stories match. All passengers should always give the same answer and say, "I'm going to remain silent and am I free to go?" Remember you have to tell the police officer that you don't want to talk to him. It's the law
    How long can a police officer keep you pulled over "detained" during a traffic stop? The Supreme Court has said no more than 15 minutes is a reasonable amount of time for a police officer to conduct his investigation and allow you to go FREE. Just keep asking the police officer "AM I FREE TO GO?"

    A good time to ask "AM I FREE TO GO," is after the police officer has given you a "warning or a ticket" and you have signed it. Once you have signed that ticket the traffic stop is legally over says the U.S. Supreme Court. There's no law that requires you to stay and talk to the police officer or answer any questions. After you have signed the ticket and got your license back you may roll up your window, start your car and leave. If you're outside the car ask the police officer, "AM I FREE TO GO?" If he says yes then get in your car and leave.


    Car Searches And Body Searches

    Remember the police officer wouldn't be asking you, if he didn't need your permission to search! "The right to be free from unreasonable searches is one of America's most precious First Liberties."

    Just because you're stopped for a traffic violation does NOT allow a police officer to search your car. However if you go riding around smoking a blunt and get pulled over, the police officer smells marijuana, sees a weapon or drugs in plain view he now has "probable cause" to search you car and that's your own stupid fault!

    Police officers swore an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution and not to violate your rights against unreasonable search and seizure Fourth Amendment. Denying a police officers request to search you or your car is not an admission of guilt, it's your American right! Some police officers might say, "if you have nothing to hide, you should allow me to search." Politely say to the police officer "I don't consent to a search and am I free to go?"

    The police officer is allowed to handcuff you and/or detain and even put you in his police car for his safety. Don't resist or you will be arrested! There's a big difference between being detained and being arrested. Say nothing in the police car! Police will record your conversation inside the police car, say nothing to your friend and don't talk to the police officers!

    If you are arrested and your car is towed, the police are allowed to take an "inventory" of the items in your car. If anything is found that's illegal, the police will get a warrant and then charge you with another crime.

    Police Pat Downs...
    For the safety of police officers the law allows the police to pat down your outer clothing to see if you have any weapons. If the police officer feels something that he believes is a weapon, then he can go into your pockets and pull out the item he believes is a weapon.

    A police officer may ask you or even demand that you empty your pockets, but you have the right to say "NO, AM I FREE TO GO?" There's NO law that requires you to empty your pockets when a police officer "ask you." The only time a police officer should be taking your personal property out of your pockets is after you have been arrested.

    If a Police Officer Knocks at Your Door at Home-You Don't Have to Open the Door!

    If the police knock and ask to enter your home, you DON'T have to open the door unless they have a warrant signed by a judge. "If the police have a warrant they won't be knocking, they'll be kicking in your door!" There is NO law that requires you to open your door to a police officer.* Don't open your door with the chain-lock on either, the police will shove their way in. Simply shout to the police officers "I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY" or just don't say anything at all.

    Guest and roommates staying in your home/apartment/dorm need to be aware of their rights specially "college students" and told not to open the door to a police officer or invite police officers into your home without your permission. Police officers are like vampires, they need your permission to come into your home. Never invite a police officer into your home, such an invitation not only gives police officers an opportunity to look around for clues to your lifestyle, habits, friends, reading material, etc; but also tends to prolong the conversation.

    If you are arrested outside your home the police officer might ask if you would like to go inside and get your shoes or a shirt? He might even be nice and let you tell your wife or friend goodbye, but it's a trick! Don't let the police officer into your house!

    Never agree to go to the police station if the police want to question you. Just say, "I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY."

    * In some emergency situations (for example when a someone is screaming for help from inside your home, police are chasing someone into your home, police see a felony being committed or if someone has called 911 from inside your house) police officers are then allowed to enter and search your home without a warrant.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Post is off-topic. Doesn't comport with the rules of the OCDO message forum.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44Brent View Post
    If the police has reasonable suspicion that I have committed a crime, then they don't need to "ask" for my permission, they can just bust open my trunk and conduct a search. In the above described video, if the police truly believed a killer was hiding in the back of the van, then they should have surrounded the van with a SWAT team. But the fact that they didn't have a SWAT team surrounding the vehicle clearly shows they were simply conducting a fishing expedition.
    This is actually no longer true...

    RAS or probable cause doesn't get LE into your car to search anymore. Most departments here in WA will actually seal the car and get a warrant anymore. Arizona V. Gant is the case that recently made it almost impossible to search a car on RAS/PC alone, unless there are some pretty clear and urgent exigent circumstances. For vehicles, there is essentially no more search incident to arrest. Cases were getting thrown out left and right because of Gant and improper searches occurring. I know of at least a few departments now that even if there is something in plain sight such as drugs or a firearm, they will just lock the car up, tow it to their impound lot and wait on a warrant.

    So the magic words with a cop wanting to search your car is "Based on Arizona V. Gant, I do not consent to a search of my vehicle, if you wish to search it, you can apply for an obtain a warrant first." Then clam up, and don't say anything else, because cops will try and ruse you into letting them look around your car. There is the old "Just for my safety, can I check the area right around the drivers seat?" or "Anything in your car you would like me to get for you?"

    While I have a lot of respect for LE, I still want them to do it right, and by the law. Unfortunately there are so many people out there willing to throw away their rights by letting LEO's do whatever they want. Many people tend to have the mentality of "I have nothing to hide, go ahead..." So you end up "training" officers to violate peoples rights... The thing to always remember is, unless you are the victim of a crime (and sometimes even if you are the victim) police are not on your side.

    Here is the wikipedia on Gant... http://bit.ly/vuL9Np

    Here is the court decision... http://bit.ly/v8iAcl

  19. #19
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadHatter66 View Post
    he answered that my refusal would be good enough for a warrant.
    I don't mind LEOs lying, it's what they do. But jeeze, come ON, at least have it pass the giggle test.
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  20. #20
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    I would not have a problem letting an Officer look in my vehicle for someone that had just shot someone.
    Quote Originally Posted by 44Brent View Post
    "edited do to length" Blah Blah Blah
    Really, you have not changed my understanding or position as to my statement while a good part of your post is accurate but there is some paranoia and a couple misguided statements.

    Not every situation need to be so severely scrutinized.
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    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadHatter66 View Post

    Here is the wikipedia on Gant... http://bit.ly/vuL9Np

    Here is the court decision... http://bit.ly/v8iAcl
    Thank you for the links. This is new information of which I was previously unaware.

  22. #22
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    Just one comment: Unless the cop is older than I am, I will not address him/her as "sir" or "ma'am". Those are reserved for those older than me and for commissioned officers of the armed forces. I will not accept, as several cops have done, being called "Pops", "Old Timer", or "Old Man". Any one of those implies a lack of respect on the cop's part.

    As concerns being a good citizen, I will cooperate only to that extent required by law.

  23. #23
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Post is off-topic. Doesn't comport with the rules of the OCDO message forum.
    Wow, Just freaking WOW.

    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Nothing. The State Patrol has no authority to override the strategic or tactical decisions of a county deputy.[/COLOR]
    Even if they break the law in the state that the State patrol is hired for.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadHatter66 View Post
    This is actually no longer true...

    RAS or probable cause doesn't get LE into your car to search anymore. Most departments here in WA will actually seal the car and get a warrant anymore. Arizona V. Gant is the case that recently made it almost impossible to search a car on RAS/PC alone, unless there are some pretty clear and urgent exigent circumstances. For vehicles, there is essentially no more search incident to arrest. Cases were getting thrown out left and right because of Gant and improper searches occurring. I know of at least a few departments now that even if there is something in plain sight such as drugs or a firearm, they will just lock the car up, tow it to their impound lot and wait on a warrant.

    So the magic words with a cop wanting to search your car is "Based on Arizona V. Gant, I do not consent to a search of my vehicle, if you wish to search it, you can apply for an obtain a warrant first." Then clam up, and don't say anything else, because cops will try and ruse you into letting them look around your car. There is the old "Just for my safety, can I check the area right around the drivers seat?" or "Anything in your car you would like me to get for you?"

    While I have a lot of respect for LE, I still want them to do it right, and by the law. Unfortunately there are so many people out there willing to throw away their rights by letting LEO's do whatever they want. Many people tend to have the mentality of "I have nothing to hide, go ahead..." So you end up "training" officers to violate peoples rights... The thing to always remember is, unless you are the victim of a crime (and sometimes even if you are the victim) police are not on your side.

    Here is the wikipedia on Gant... http://bit.ly/vuL9Np

    Here is the court decision... http://bit.ly/v8iAcl
    Only roll your window down enough to hand documents through and to be able to hear the officer. If they ask you to step out roll all the windows up, and lock the vehicle as you exit it. Leave your wheels cranked hard one way and your E-brake on. If they tow it, the tow driver is going to earn their money.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

  24. #24
    Regular Member
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    Very very well said 44Brent, never ever forget that Cops lie for a living.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, I don't mind at all when LEOs lie to ACTUAL criminals (I think most criminals trip themselves up, but anyway). Though that may sound simplistic, it's reasonable.

    I completely support Brent's analysis. When lawyers tell you 'don't talk to the cops' and try to impress on you that there is no 'half-way' no 'you're being paranoid, I'd do it in these exceptional instances', they KNOW what they are talking about.

    People keep expecting justice and fairness, but that's NOT their agenda here. You are NOT smart enough to know when to breech the 'don't talk to cops' rule, trust me.

    Audio everything, video what you can, be polite but firm, but above all don't let them search, don't let them have RAS where none existed before.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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