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Thread: mcl.. 28.425f ticket

  1. #1
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    mcl.. 28.425f ticket

    what if im stop less say in the parking lot of wallmart for open carrying

    does this apply

    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
    Sec. 5f.

    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.

    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.


    say i have a bug in the car.. now when i say im stoped im comming from inside the store and am walking to my car

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    the problem is that it is a poorly written law. The mcl is written from the perspective of a traffic stop. If you are stopped while driving your vehicle, and you are carrying a pistol in the vehicle under authority of your cpl, then you would be required to disclose.

    In the scenario you present, I would say that you would NOT be required to disclose if you are stopped while walking outside of a store and happen to have a concealed pistol in your vehicle. What if you are walking to the store, and your vehicle is 20 miles away (with a loaded pistol inside) would you still be required to disclose? [rhetorical question]

    When in doubt, it is ok to disclose.

    If you actually got a ticket for this, I would contact attorney Dean Greanblat (sp?) and not talk about it on the web.
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 12-26-2011 at 06:59 PM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    For your bolded #3 above, this only applies when you are CARRYING, which the CPL allows "on or about your person". When you are not in your vehicle, it would be considered STORED and certainly hope securely.

    IANAL!

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    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    what if im stop less say in the parking lot of wallmart for open carrying

    does this apply

    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
    Sec. 5f.

    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.

    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.


    say i have a bug in the car.. now when i say im stoped im comming from inside the store and am walking to my car
    Open carrying and you have a cpl (you should if on Walmart Property since they have a liquor license), you are not carry concealing, therefor you do not have to disclose you are armed. he can see your gun. But you may be asked to show your cpl because of the liquor licenses to prove you have a cpl and are in compliance of the law. This law is about carrying concealed and you are not.

    Take it away from Walmart and in a place where no liquor license is issued.

    Lets say a public Park, you are at the slide, with your kids, you car is 100 yards away. You need no CPL. If a cop comes up to you, you are still within the the law. Even if the interaction is official, you are not required to show your CPL even if asked you are open carrying. If concealed, that is a total different story and you best disclose.

    as far as the Car is concerned in Walmart's parking lot or at you local public park cpl or not, he has no idea what car is yours, assuming he was not following you and knows what car you came out of, why give him fodder for ammunition to use against you. If asked which car is yours change the subject or deflect the question. He would have to have probable cause to go in the car, why give it to him.

    I view the Notification requirement to inform the officer you are carrying concealed is to inform the officer you are ARMED and MAYBE dangerous

    that's my 2 cents worth, but with any stop YOU MUST do what YOU MUST do and not what I think you should do, IMO
    Last edited by Onnie; 12-26-2011 at 07:26 PM.
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    If you are not personally IN the vehicle, then you are not in possession of the gun in the vehicle.

    Therefore, no need to disclose. No I do not have a cite, my opinion only.

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    Onnie, A business having a liquor license does NOT prevent you form Carrying Concealed in Michigan.

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined;
    exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties

    d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101
    to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass
    and consumed on the premises.
    I'm not aware of any Wal-marts that sell by the glass and allow you to drink on the premises. If you know of one, Please let us know!
    Last edited by xd shooter; 12-26-2011 at 07:47 PM.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    Onnie, A business having a liquor license does NOT prevent you form Carrying Concealed in Michigan.



    I'm not aware of any Wal-marts that sell by the glass and allow you to drink on the premises. If you know of one, Please let us know!
    It's not even sell by glass and drink on premises. I'd have to be a bar or tavern which Walmart is def not that and Walmart definitely is not considered a place where their is consumption on premises.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Onnie is correct. You two missed the point. You may not open carry on the premesis of any establishment that has a liquor license without a cpl. This includes walmart or a gas station that sells beer. Firearms cannot be possessed on the premises, even if they have a license and don't actually sell alcohol (unless you meet one of the exceptions: cpl, owner, employee...)

    750.234d
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 12-26-2011 at 09:20 PM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  9. #9
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    Onnie is correct. You two missed the point. You may not open carry on the premesis of any establishment that has a liquor license without a cpl. This includes walmart or a gas station that sells beer. Firearms cannot be possessed on the premises, even if they have a license and don't actually sell alcohol (unless you meet one of the exceptions: cpl, owner, employee...)

    750.234d
    Nonetheless he still does not need to provide CPL and tell he is carrying because there is a gun in the car and he is on the premises of a place with a liquor license.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    Onnie is correct. You two missed the point. You may not open carry on the premesis of any establishment that has a liquor license without a cpl. This includes walmart or a gas station that sells beer. Firearms cannot be possessed on the premises, even if they have a license and don't actually sell alcohol (unless you meet one of the exceptions: cpl, owner, employee...)

    750.234d
    In simpler words, if you were on their property, and had a gun in your car, and no CPL, your butt is butter.

    Whether they actually sell is beside the point.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    What he wrote can be read 2 ways, I understand now what he probably meant, that if Open Carrying, One SHOULD (actually BETTER) have a CPL in any store with a liquor license.

    I read it that one should be Open Carrying if in a store with a liquor license...

  12. #12
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    If he's there he MUST have a CPL, or permission from the owner. (best if in writing)

    50.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:


    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.


    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 12-26-2011 at 10:41 PM.

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    u mean i need to go get a cpl.....

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    Yes.

    If you get charged under 234d you cant have a CPL for 3 years.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    u mean i need to go get a cpl.....
    Didn't you say you had a CPL earlier? I'm assuming you're being scarastic
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Didn't you say you had a CPL earlier? I'm assuming you're being scarastic
    yes it was just a question but often people reads to much in to the op

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    say i have a bug in the car.. now when i say im stoped im comming from inside the store and am walking to my car
    This is only my opinion based on some things I've read but since I can't find the cites and/or I am too lazy to look them up right now I'm sticking with this being just my opinion.

    It depends on how close I am to my car. If I standing next to my vehicle I would disclose the BUG in the car. If I'm across the parking lot I wouldn't.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Nonetheless he still does not need to provide CPL and tell he is carrying because there is a gun in the car and he is on the premises of a place with a liquor license.
    The question was put forth as walking in the parking lot of Walmart open carrying. If approached by a cop YES in my opinion you do need to show your CPL, if asked. it would be a lawful request since one needs a CPL to carry on Walmarts property because they sell liquor

    if walmart gave permission and you have no cpl, show him your authorization
    if no CPL or no authorization, bye bye!

    I took the question as a customer visiting walmart


    use MCL cited above

    as far as it the gun in the car, why even bring it up, if ask by the cop deflect the question or refuse to answer, he will need probable cause to search the car, and you carrying a weapon in Walmarts parking lot is not IMO probable cause
    Last edited by Onnie; 12-28-2011 at 01:29 AM.
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    The question was put forth as walking in the parking lot of Walmart open carrying. If approached by a cop YES in my opinion you do need to show your CPL, if asked. it would be a lawful request since one needs a CPL to carry on Walmarts property because they sell liquor

    if walmart gave permission and you have no cpl, show him your authorization
    if no CPL or no authorization, bye bye!

    I took the question as a customer visiting walmart


    use MCL cited above

    as far as it the gun in the car, why even bring it up, if ask by the cop deflect the question or refuse to answer, he will need probable cause to search the car, and you carrying a weapon in Walmarts parking lot is not IMO probable cause
    I disagree because I look at it differently. If you or anyone else chooses to because you are at a place where a CPL is needed and you want to ID yourself that's your choice. I do not think you are legally required to though. Just like you cannot be pulled over simply to check if you have a DL.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    The thing about that is however, if the police officer has probable cause, they can stop you. If the officer approaching you knows the laws and the areas listed in MCL 750.234d he would be under the impression, and have probable cause to believe, you are violating MCL 750.234d until you can provide evidence that you are exempt.

    I would even go as far as to say, if the officer saw you in your yard OC..then get into your car on your property (still legal cause its your property) but then drive away from your property it would give them reason to stop you because without already knowing if you are exempt under MCL 750.231a he would have reason to believe you are breaking the law.
    Last edited by Yance; 12-28-2011 at 01:07 PM.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    Nope, we operate under the presumption of innocence, not guilt. They must default to the legal assumption, that one is entitled to keep and bear arms under the constitution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    The thing about that is however, if the police officer has probable cause, they can stop you. If the officer approaching you knows the laws and the areas listed in MCL 750.234d he would be under the impression, and have probable cause to believe, you are violating MCL 750.234d until you can provide evidence that you are exempt.

    I would even go as far as to say, if the officer saw you in your yard OC..then get into your car on your property (still legal cause its your property) but then drive away from your property it would give them reason to stop you because without already knowing if you are exempt under MCL 750.231a he would have reason to believe you are breaking the law.
    While there is no case law on this exact subject, i think there is evidence that suggests it would be improper to stop a person who is oc'ing in an area listed in 750.234d because we do have a SCOTUS case on the unconstitutionality of stopping a motorist just to check his papers and make certain he has a valid license.

    In Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648 (1979), the United States Supreme Court ruled that the police stopping vehicles for no reason other than to check the drivers' licenses and registrations was unconstitutional.
    The statute that requires one to be a licensed driver (257.301), and the statute that prohibits firearms (750.234d) from certain premises are written almost identical.

    750.234d:

    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following...
    257.301

    Sec. 301.

    (1) Except as provided in this act, a person shall not drive a motor vehicle upon a highway in this state....
    If you cannot stop people who are driving just to check their papers, even though it is unlawful to drive without a license, then how can you argue that it is ok to stop a person who is carrying a firearm just to check their papers?
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Well, think about it like this, there are certain locations where only authorized vehicles may be...when they see you driving in there, especially if the vehicle isnt recognized as one that is there often, they would assume you are not supposed to be there and then stop you to see if you are exempt and allowed to drive in the area. Not necessarily having a DL, but more so a pass or ID to be in the restricted area. Same with carry in the areas in 750.234d, its essentially a restricted area unless you are exempt, so with that in mind you could be violating that law and could give way to reasonable suspicion that you are violating a law. It wouldnt be like walking on a public sidewalk because you arent restricted from doing so.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    Requiring you to show ID would have to be written into the statute concerning the restricted area. If iot isn't illegal, then it's legal.

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    Although, given that if you arent exempt from MCL 750.234d, you would be in violation of it, I could see that if it was taken to court it would not go your way.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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