First bad experience

Well I figured it would only be a matter of time. I was ocing in Greensboro, and had entered a parking lot on wendover where I was about to go shopping. I was exiting my vehicle, and there was a local gpd who I guess was on a post there. When approached he asked if I intended to enter the store with my gun strapped to my hip. My response was that sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. It was my first time to this store, so I was going to approach the door and look for any signage that might be on the door. Right about then, he goes on to speak about how even though oc is not illegal, he wouldnt advise it. So of course I ask why, and he goes on to say that if even one person calls 911 on me in the store, he would have to charge me with gattop. So I quickly responded that GATTOP requires showing some form of intent to terrorize, and that merely carrying a gun in your holster does not constitute intent. His response? He would charge me anyway, and whats the big deal about getting a cc permit? I responded by asking why he would charge me if it would not stick, and he responded that something has to be done if someone calls. He wasn't being a d*ck about it, but I really do believe that he was serious in what he said. He also mentioned how the store can choose to ban me from that point on if they choose. At that point I thanked him for the advice, relocated my vehicle to another parking spot where I locked up my firearm in my vehicle safe, and went on with my business. It's really disturbing to me that this is how a situation like this is handled. If a cop gets a call, questions me, and after learning I had done nothing illegal sends me on my way then I have no problem whatsoever. However, if he is gonna put bracelets on me for excercising my right, AND he knows he is wrong but doesn't care, I have big issue with this. It makes me glad that I'm taking my concealed course at the beginning of the new year. I always said I would continue to OC even after my permit, but if those enforcing the law are not educated, and dont seem to care, then why put myself at risk. What bothers me even more, is that NC is not only oc friendly, but a gold star oc state. Yet, residents have to carry recorders, pamphlets, and be ready for conflict with local pd's. I really think that once I get my permit, its cc for me until things change. I thought my first experience would be with a local civilian, not the people who should know better. This catch all charge has to go. Whats next? I'm cc'ing and reach for an item and print? Do I get charged now because some person sees the print on my shirt and gets scared? Does GRNC even try to straighten this mess out? I already know the NRA's stand on oc. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

"i'll ask the manager inside if he minds me carrying here, officer, but thanks for your advice. Have a good day".

After my visit, I'd call his chief and ask to update his department's training concerning the laws involved, while recording my complaint.

Done.

How you handled this situation was just fine ........ for you. I am all for one choosing his battles and if you arn't prepared to go thuough this BS then I'd say you did what was right for you. Otherwise, did you record the first convo. about him arresting you just because someone called? If you related the convo. as it went down then you had him admitting you did nothing illegal so you could have gone about your business without disarming. Had he gotten a call and you were arrested you would have had all the evidence you needed to get the charges dismissed and then file a lawsuit for wrongfull arrest. YES, ITS ALOT TO GO THROUGH. I am in no way criticising how you handled it. Just sayin that it takes some fortitude to go the distance. Don't be discouraged to OC though from this experience.

Can you tell us which business this was?

I would make contact with the department training and standards officer and discuss this officer's attitude and apparent lack of knowledge. i) a 911 call does not automatically require an arrest
ii) GATTTOTP requirements (as you told him)
iii) not caring about whether or not they are wrong

I won't criticize what you did; you did what you thought was right in your situation.
E-mail Mr. Valone about your concerns reference GRNC support and actions. He will give you an answer.
Don't give up on OC.

Well the business I was headed to was Kmart. But the officer was in his vehicle sitting in the parking lot towards the front. Who is mr. Valone?

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I wonder if this officer was told to discourage oc...and was not really telling the truth. Has anyone actually been arrested for oc in north carolina? Man I wish I was actually friends with a cop from this state because I would really like to know if anyone has ever been arrested and charged (even if dropped later) on this, or are officers being encouraged to discourage whenever possible.

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importinvasion said:

Well the business I was headed to was Kmart. But the officer was in his vehicle sitting in the parking lot towards the front. Who is mr. Valone?

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Thanks.
Paul Valone is President of GRNC. Site is www.grnc.org

Paragraphs are your friend.

It sounds like he was discouraging, but not demanding that you don't OC. Your battles, your choice. But removing your firearm just makes him feel like he's right. I've OC'd around LE before with no issues. So they are not all like that.

BTW, the case law on GATTOTP is State v Huntley. When they realize you actually know the case law on the subject it seems to get their attention.

http://www.guncite.com/court/state/25nc418.html


And to add, I can think of one arrest and prosecution for GATTTOTP. Joseph McVey at the Asheville Airport when Obama was there. It was trumped up IMO. He was probably trespassing, since guns are not allowed on airport property IIRC. But it did not fit the criteria of GATTTOTP per Huntley. He must not have had much of a lawyer.

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/04/26/armed-man-arrested-near-obama-plane/

importinvasion said:

Well I figured it would only be a matter of time. I was ocing in Greensboro, and had entered a parking lot on wendover where I was about to go shopping. I was exiting my vehicle, and there was a local gpd who I guess was on a post there. When approached he asked if I intended to enter the store with my gun strapped to my hip. My response was that sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't.

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I'm sorry this happened, but you handled it right tactically at about 80%.

If you failed to get a recording it's basically hearsay and could even be not 100% accurate or spin-proof.
You should have gone to a different store...or...gotten manager approval. How the officer would have handled a 'customer' complaint ("it scared my toddler") if you have manager permission, I don't know. Sitting there quizzing him on what he "would do" is a lot different from what he would do IRL. (i.e. bluffing).

If I'm a person in authority I can keep you off balance, feed you BS and use subtle verbal judo to make you think anything they want. But if you're recording (and he can't stop you) or you have a witness, or several OC-ers are with you, he's probably a lot less likely to 'shuck you around'.

So, in the future, get mgr pre-approval (in fact if I was a manager who welcomed OC customers and found out a cop was outside shucking and jivin my customers with fake laws, I'd get the mayor to fire him). OR, go back to your car and go to an OC-friendly store, sans irritating LEO.

HTH, good luck!

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Edit to add (after reading Jason)...
Beware that citing case law to a...uh, antagonistic LEO is just going to get you arrested for something else.

There's really no need to engage someone who you encounter and can see they're trying to "discourage" (i.e. lie about a law) you under color of authority, it's best to disengage. THAT (IANAL) has some actionable or illegal aspects to it IIRC, btw.

You can not win a battle on the law on the street with a LEO. Do not attempt it. Disengage, flanking maneuver, then go about your business with protection and sanction of law and the 2A.

point # 1

Dont talk to the police, as you can well see it never ends well I have never once had an on duty officer I didn't know come up to me solely to just shoot the $hit with me or talk about what I was carrying and gun talk. There is always an alteror motive there and no matter how friendly it may seem to the officer it is an investigation.

Example I was in Hillsborough two nights ago I stopped at a gas station 3 officers were standing at the dorr they gave me a good eye ******* as I entered the store and then when I exited one of them said "Hey son come here I want to ask you something" I walked over to him and said "Officer am I being detained or am I free to go" he then made a brushing motion with his hand insinuation to leave so I walked away.
The best police encounters are the ones you dont have.

Point # 2
This may of well of been the officers intention to scare you off from OC. (Talk about GATOTP) He may of very well mentioned that he would illegally arrest you under GATOTP simply to encourage you to lock you gun back in the car. IF you do have a police encounter like this one where an officer says something that absurd like he would arrest and charge you any way, thank him for his advice ask him if he has a card or get his name and badge number then call a lawyer and have a talk with his sgt, or superverisor. What he did was the threat if illegal dentition and arrest under color of law and could be illegal

I have been very satisfied with my local Hickory Police Dept. I have passed (walking) several in Walmart and the parking lot and I mean walking right in front of their car. One officer in Dick's sporting goods in uniform was shopping as was I and he did take a small 2nd look at my hip and just made a gesture with his head smiled and continued on his way. I went to Sears in our local mall and I know the main entrance to the mall is posted. My intention was to enter Sears only and no plans to visit the mall area. I did look closely for a post at the Sears entrance and did not see one but was sure some kind of encounter would occur. I shopped the tool section for about an hour while the wife was in the mall. She met me in Sears and we exited with no problems. Several associates seen me and acted as if my gun was no big deal. But again, I'm sure I will one day have that encounter and as stated hope I respond with best words at the time. No one on here can honestly say how they will respond at the very moment. I'm sure all the knowledge etc could go out the window(brain fart) and you say everything wrong..I just make it a habit to keep fresh the knowledge that I have and often play out things in my mind before hand just in case...JMO.....Carry on......

I've noticed a common trend between multiply posts in this forum. First off if you talked to me the way of some you do to officers we would have a major problem. If you want my respect then you show me the same as I would you, I guess people seem to forget the golden rule of treat others how you want to be treated. If the officer is in the wrong then that's fine, but to walk to to an officer and say and I free to go or am I detained is just disrespectful if they called you over to talk with them and don't even allow them to get out why they wanted to speak to you. I'm surprised that most people on here live their lives with the notion that every single officer in the world is out to get them because they are opening carrying a weapon. Believe it or not but officers have other things to do then worry about you and your weapon your wearing unless they are called out it. Also, I've noticed that everyone with these "Officer" problems seem to be Greensboro east. We don't seem to have these "officer" problems up here in the mountains. Now, maybe that's because most from around here grew up around guns, are around guns everyday, etc or it could be the fact that we actually respect our law enforcement and don't treat them the same way some on here do.

WTFOVER said:

I've noticed a common trend between multiply posts in this forum. First off if you talked to me the way of some you do to officers we would have a major problem. If you want my respect then you show me the same as I would you, I guess people seem to forget the golden rule of treat others how you want to be treated. If the officer is in the wrong then that's fine, but to walk to to an officer and say and I free to go or am I detained is just disrespectful if they called you over to talk with them and don't even allow them to get out why they wanted to speak to you. I'm surprised that most people on here live their lives with the notion that every single officer in the world is out to get them because they are opening carrying a weapon. Believe it or not but officers have other things to do then worry about you and your weapon your wearing unless they are called out it. Also, I've noticed that everyone with these "Officer" problems seem to be Greensboro east. We don't seem to have these "officer" problems up here in the mountains. Now, maybe that's because most from around here grew up around guns, are around guns everyday, etc or it could be the fact that we actually respect our law enforcement and don't treat them the same way some on here do.

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An officer who addresses someone as "Hey son" in a condescending tone does not just want to talk guns, No good comes from talking to the police and my past experiences are proof of that. There is no such thing as a casual encounter with the police, to them its an instigation, one wrong word and you are detained because of evidence you gave them

This video will prove that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Because of my work I know a ton of cops and yes there are great officers out there and if its an officer I know, or if they start a friendly conversation I will engage them in a very limited and short conversation, but it ends there. Officer who try to start conversations with "Hey Son" "Come here I want to ask you something" or "You don't plan to carry that in there do you" are not looking for conversation they are coducting an investigation that will likely result in me being harrased or punished for exercising my civil liberities.

Id like to belive that cops are great people who wouldn't dare trample on my rights that they swore to protect but Im not that ignorant or diluted from reality.

And FYI: I didn't just walk up to him and say that, he called me over like I was some punk kid not the Tax paying Army Vet Gun toting American citizen I am, and I do not suffer the delusional thought that every single officer is bad but it only takes one for to get your thrown in jail charged with a serious crime and have your gun sized.

"WTFOVER: If you want my respect then you show me the same as I would you, I guess people seem to forget the golden rule of treat others how you want to be treated"

Ditto. My respect is yours to lose.

"Sc0tt: "Hey son come here I want to ask you something"

I don't think an officer would be calling me 'son', but I'm not a dog and I won't heel. I'll meet you halfway if you've got questions. I'll let him ask and then decide if I want to respond or leave.

At the end of the day, all I really want to know is whether they would really charge me with gattop. According to the officer, yes....but yet noone has actually heard of it happening other than the airport. I have seen other ocing in greensboro, so I really don't know what to think...

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importinvasion said:

At the end of the day, all I really want to know is whether they would really charge me with gattop. According to the officer, yes....but yet noone has actually heard of it happening other than the airport. I have seen other ocing in greensboro, so I really don't know what to think...

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Could they arrest you? Yes, they can arrest you for darn near anything.

Could the Magistrate charge you? Yes, if they don't know the case law, or won't look it up if you suggest it. Funny aside, a friend of the family is a Magistrate. I had someone threaten to try and get me with it. She told me that since I had a CHP they could not charge me. Not sure how that works though. Maybe it's just her.

Should you be found guilty for simply OC'ing? Not according to State v Huntley. Go to my previous post and look at the ruling. It's quite informative.

Ricky said:

I have been very satisfied with my local Hickory Police Dept.

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There is a very good reason for that. Shortly after Georgia Carry hit some PD's with lawsuits, the chief decided he wanted none of that up here. They sent out a training memo and it was addressed at the beginning of every shift. Simply OC'ing is not GATTTOTP was the gist of it. They can make contact, but no detentions or charges for simply carrying. A family member in the meeting told me about it.

I have had only one encounter with LEO where words were shared. He asked me what kind of gun I was carying. I told him and he said it was a nice one, I said thanks ,have a nice day. Now I do believe they will strike a conversation with you to kind of feel out the situation,that is fine with me, but keep it short, and keep it professional. I dont need or want a lecture. Even worse,wait till some bed wetting civilian tells you to cover up your gun.That will really pi$$ you off.

I believe KMart and Sears policy is follow state law. There is a thread somewhere .

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?96288-KMart-Open-Carry-Policy&highlight=kmart

NC's GATTTOTP is pure BS. It relies upon intent to 'terrorize,' and lawful, peaceful commerce is an affirmative defense, while the state must also prove intent. It is similar in some respects to other states' brandishing laws. You can be charged with anything no matter how inane it is. You can then sue for false arrest and malicious prosecution. Despite the police apologists usual "gee, the policeman is your friend" pap, this cop was an arrogant pos who thinks he is 'the law.' I would file a complaint after talking to the manager on the store's policies. If, as noted above, they follow state law, the cop's actions were unlawful and harassment.