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Thread: Why does this section of 28.422 bother me so much?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Why does this section of 28.422 bother me so much?

    28.422 is the law requiring MI residents to get a License to Purchase/Possess/Transport a pistol and to register our pistols.

    Sections 11 and 12 have a little tidbit that is really bothering me.

    (11) This section does not apply to a person who is younger than the age required under subsection (3)(b) and who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:

    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.

    (b) The person is at a recognized target range.

    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.

    (d) The person's parent or guardian is physically present and supervising the person.

    (e) The owner of the pistol is physically present.

    (12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:

    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.

    (b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.

    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.

    (d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.
    The way this law is written I can't teach my sisters, nieces, nephews, mom, friends, etc. the basics of safe pistol handling/operation in my or their homes...we must be at a shooting range/facility for them to handle the pistol.

    How many NRA Basic Pistol instructors out there are teaching out of their homes or going to the student's home? If the student doesn't have their own pistol and the instructor brings one they are breaking the law. If the student does have a pistol but the instructor doesn't have a CPL then he is also breaking the law if he handles the pistol. A couple brings the instructor into their home but the gun is registered to the husband...if the wife handles it she is breaking the law.

    Read that idiotic piece of garbage legislation again. The ONLY times that a person who is not the registered owner of the pistol may be in possession of the pistol is if *the pistol is classified as an antique, *the non-owner possessor has a concealed license, OR the non-owner possessor is being taught AT A RANGE/FACILITY.

    *28.432 provides the exemptions for the concealed license holder or the antique pistol.

    For some reason this is really getting my dander up.

    Bronson

    ETA: 1600 posts....woot!
    Last edited by Bronson; 12-28-2011 at 02:17 AM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  2. #2
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Very interesting. This is what happens when you're in a state that requires a license to even possess a pistol. I think this part of the weapon free school zone is stupid.
    (ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's
    vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    So if I pay a fee for either I can have it on school property when picking up or dropping off a student but if I do not and am dropping off a student then going to a gun range where no membership is required I'm violating the law. Why should those who have a hunting license or range membership be exempt?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    xman, i agree. no one should be treated differently, that's why i'm suggesting the following law to replace all other firearms laws to include concealed and open carry:
    "no person shall harm another person with a firearm. any person who violates this is guilty of... blah blah blah"
    much simpler and clearer that way.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  4. #4
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    xman, i agree. no one should be treated differently, that's why i'm suggesting the following law to replace all other firearms laws to include concealed and open carry:
    "no person shall harm another person with a firearm. any person who violates this is guilty of... blah blah blah"
    much simpler and clearer that way.
    I think that would make far too much sense and be too easy for common folks to understand without lawyers.

    How about something like this. I know it's not the best looking law but I just kinda did it.
    750.777 Second amendment freedom. Carry and possession of arms.
    Sec. 777: (1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, no person shall brandish any arm. Nor shall any person: threaten, kill, or in anyway harm someone with an arm unless exempted under this act.
    (2) No shall go armed with unlawful intent. Nor shall any felon go armed at any time.
    (3) Any person who lawfully owns an arm, who is not a felon, shall be allowed to carry, possess, or own any arm and carry that arm with no licensing, registration, or fee(s) required.
    (4) A person who lawfully owns an arm, who is not a felon, can carry an arm everywhere within this state except on private property where the carry of arms is clearly prohibited and the property has lock boxes to store arms and armed security with metal detectors.
    (5) The state legislature is the only body that may control the carry, possession, purchase, and ownership of arms. This shall include, but not limited to, counties, cities, townships, villages, libraries, colleges, universities, or any place that is not completely private property. Only private property owners shall be allowed to restrict carry of arms.
    Exemptions to (1)
    a. Any person who is not engaged in the commission of a crime who uses their arm(s), shall have no duty to retreat if they reasonably fear for themselves or other law abiding citizen: the loss or destruction of property, the loss of life, serious bodily harm, rape or kidnapping.

    Any person who is guilty of (1) shall be sentenced up to 5 years in prison for brandishing or threatening another person with an arm. Any person who shall harm or kill any person with an arm shall be sentenced to a minimum of 5 years in prison and a maximum of 60 years in prison.

    Any person who is guilty of (2) shall be sentenced to a minimum of 5 years in prison and no more than 30 years in prison.

    Any violation of part (4) or (5) by a body or private property shall result in a fine of no more than $50,000 and paying for all costs of any lawsuits brought against them for violating this law.

    Definitions:
    Arm(s): Shall include anything that may be used as a self defense tool. This shall include, but is not limited to: firearms, knives, machetes, all tasers, pepper spray, brass knuckles, or any other weapon that may be used for self defense.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  5. #5
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    What's surprising, is how many people can read this, and still don't see it. Myself included until a recend discussion in a thread here.

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    I guess that would make it impossible to properly teach gun safety to kids at school.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    What's surprising, is how many people can read this, and still don't see it. Myself included until a recend discussion in a thread here.
    I have read that law a hundred times and didn't notice it until that same discussion. For some reason I can't get it out of my head.Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Its something that needs to be changed, now the question is, how do we go about doing it.

    This ierks me as well, for one, I have showed a few people gun safety, including my own kid, and two, the range is the worst place to teach someone who is nervous or gunshy.

  9. #9
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    28.422 is the law requiring MI residents to get a License to Purchase/Possess/Transport a pistol and to register our pistols.

    Sections 11 and 12 have a little tidbit that is really bothering me.



    The way this law is written I can't teach my sisters, nieces, nephews, mom, friends, etc. the basics of safe pistol handling/operation in my or their homes...we must be at a shooting range/facility for them to handle the pistol.

    How many NRA Basic Pistol instructors out there are teaching out of their homes or going to the student's home? If the student doesn't have their own pistol and the instructor brings one they are breaking the law. If the student does have a pistol but the instructor doesn't have a CPL then he is also breaking the law if he handles the pistol. A couple brings the instructor into their home but the gun is registered to the husband...if the wife handles it she is breaking the law.

    Read that idiotic piece of garbage legislation again. The ONLY times that a person who is not the registered owner of the pistol may be in possession of the pistol is if *the pistol is classified as an antique, *the non-owner possessor has a concealed license, OR the non-owner possessor is being taught AT A RANGE/FACILITY.

    *28.432 provides the exemptions for the concealed license holder or the antique pistol.

    For some reason this is really getting my dander up.

    Bronson

    ETA: 1600 posts....woot!
    True if they are under 18 years of age. Not true if they are 18 or older.

    A home range certainly could be a recognized range, if it is a range....
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  10. #10
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    Do trailers count?

  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Do trailers count?
    Shame on you; Troll baiting is still illegal in Michigan.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  12. #12
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    does it have to be an NRA regulated size trailer?
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

  13. #13
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    xman, i agree. no one should be treated differently, that's why i'm suggesting the following law to replace all other firearms laws to include concealed and open carry:
    "no person shall harm another person with a firearm. any person who violates this is guilty of... blah blah blah"
    much simpler and clearer that way.
    I like it however you didn't define "HARM" Let some ****** like shumer loose on this and dirty looks and false tears will equal "HARM" or "HARMED" any idiot with slide bite or who is jumpy will claim foul!
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

  14. #14
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    I like it however you didn't define "HARM" Let some ****** like shumer loose on this and dirty looks and false tears will equal "HARM" or "HARMED" any idiot with slide bite or who is jumpy will claim foul!
    The definition of 'harm' is called out in the second 'blah'. Ya gotta read the whole thing!
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  15. #15
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Just another law that attempts to provide Security by sacrificing Freedom.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    True if they are under 18 years of age. Not true if they are 18 or older.
    Sorry V, you're incorrect. Sub-section 11 applies to minors, sub-section 12 puts the same restrictions on adults.

    (12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.

    (b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.

    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.

    (d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    A home range certainly could be a recognized range, if it is a range....
    Possibly. I know one person that has a home range and I don't know if it would count. What exactly is a "recognized" target range?

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  17. #17
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Sorry V, you're incorrect. Sub-section 11 applies to minors, sub-section 12 puts the same restrictions on adults.





    Possibly. I know one person that has a home range and I don't know if it would count. What exactly is a "recognized" target range?

    Bronson
    I really hate these F'ing laws!!!!!
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I really hate these F'ing laws!!!!!
    That's exactly what I was thinking.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  19. #19
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I guess that would make it impossible to properly teach gun safety to kids at school.
    Not true because you could use rifles, shotguns, airsoft guns, or replicas.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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