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Why does this section of 28.422 bother me so much?

Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
28.422 is the law requiring MI residents to get a License to Purchase/Possess/Transport a pistol and to register our pistols.

Sections 11 and 12 have a little tidbit that is really bothering me.

(11) This section does not apply to a person who is younger than the age required under subsection (3)(b) and who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:

(a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.

(b) The person is at a recognized target range.

(c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.

(d) The person's parent or guardian is physically present and supervising the person.

(e) The owner of the pistol is physically present.

(12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:

(a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.

(b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.

(c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.

(d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.

The way this law is written I can't teach my sisters, nieces, nephews, mom, friends, etc. the basics of safe pistol handling/operation in my or their homes...we must be at a shooting range/facility for them to handle the pistol.

How many NRA Basic Pistol instructors out there are teaching out of their homes or going to the student's home? If the student doesn't have their own pistol and the instructor brings one they are breaking the law. If the student does have a pistol but the instructor doesn't have a CPL then he is also breaking the law if he handles the pistol. A couple brings the instructor into their home but the gun is registered to the husband...if the wife handles it she is breaking the law.

Read that idiotic piece of garbage legislation again. The ONLY times that a person who is not the registered owner of the pistol may be in possession of the pistol is if *the pistol is classified as an antique, *the non-owner possessor has a concealed license, OR the non-owner possessor is being taught AT A RANGE/FACILITY.

*28.432 provides the exemptions for the concealed license holder or the antique pistol.

For some reason this is really getting my dander up.

Bronson

ETA: 1600 posts....woot!
 
Last edited:

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
Very interesting. This is what happens when you're in a state that requires a license to even possess a pistol. I think this part of the weapon free school zone is stupid.
(ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's
vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

So if I pay a fee for either I can have it on school property when picking up or dropping off a student but if I do not and am dropping off a student then going to a gun range where no membership is required I'm violating the law. Why should those who have a hunting license or range membership be exempt?
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
xman, i agree. no one should be treated differently, that's why i'm suggesting the following law to replace all other firearms laws to include concealed and open carry:
"no person shall harm another person with a firearm. any person who violates this is guilty of... blah blah blah"
much simpler and clearer that way.
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
xman, i agree. no one should be treated differently, that's why i'm suggesting the following law to replace all other firearms laws to include concealed and open carry:
"no person shall harm another person with a firearm. any person who violates this is guilty of... blah blah blah"
much simpler and clearer that way.

I think that would make far too much sense and be too easy for common folks to understand without lawyers.

How about something like this. I know it's not the best looking law but I just kinda did it.
750.777 Second amendment freedom. Carry and possession of arms.
Sec. 777: (1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, no person shall brandish any arm. Nor shall any person: threaten, kill, or in anyway harm someone with an arm unless exempted under this act.
(2) No shall go armed with unlawful intent. Nor shall any felon go armed at any time.
(3) Any person who lawfully owns an arm, who is not a felon, shall be allowed to carry, possess, or own any arm and carry that arm with no licensing, registration, or fee(s) required.
(4) A person who lawfully owns an arm, who is not a felon, can carry an arm everywhere within this state except on private property where the carry of arms is clearly prohibited and the property has lock boxes to store arms and armed security with metal detectors.
(5) The state legislature is the only body that may control the carry, possession, purchase, and ownership of arms. This shall include, but not limited to, counties, cities, townships, villages, libraries, colleges, universities, or any place that is not completely private property. Only private property owners shall be allowed to restrict carry of arms.
Exemptions to (1)
a. Any person who is not engaged in the commission of a crime who uses their arm(s), shall have no duty to retreat if they reasonably fear for themselves or other law abiding citizen: the loss or destruction of property, the loss of life, serious bodily harm, rape or kidnapping.

Any person who is guilty of (1) shall be sentenced up to 5 years in prison for brandishing or threatening another person with an arm. Any person who shall harm or kill any person with an arm shall be sentenced to a minimum of 5 years in prison and a maximum of 60 years in prison.

Any person who is guilty of (2) shall be sentenced to a minimum of 5 years in prison and no more than 30 years in prison.

Any violation of part (4) or (5) by a body or private property shall result in a fine of no more than $50,000 and paying for all costs of any lawsuits brought against them for violating this law.

Definitions:
Arm(s): Shall include anything that may be used as a self defense tool. This shall include, but is not limited to: firearms, knives, machetes, all tasers, pepper spray, brass knuckles, or any other weapon that may be used for self defense.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Its something that needs to be changed, now the question is, how do we go about doing it.

This ierks me as well, for one, I have showed a few people gun safety, including my own kid, and two, the range is the worst place to teach someone who is nervous or gunshy.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
28.422 is the law requiring MI residents to get a License to Purchase/Possess/Transport a pistol and to register our pistols.

Sections 11 and 12 have a little tidbit that is really bothering me.



The way this law is written I can't teach my sisters, nieces, nephews, mom, friends, etc. the basics of safe pistol handling/operation in my or their homes...we must be at a shooting range/facility for them to handle the pistol.

How many NRA Basic Pistol instructors out there are teaching out of their homes or going to the student's home? If the student doesn't have their own pistol and the instructor brings one they are breaking the law. If the student does have a pistol but the instructor doesn't have a CPL then he is also breaking the law if he handles the pistol. A couple brings the instructor into their home but the gun is registered to the husband...if the wife handles it she is breaking the law.

Read that idiotic piece of garbage legislation again. The ONLY times that a person who is not the registered owner of the pistol may be in possession of the pistol is if *the pistol is classified as an antique, *the non-owner possessor has a concealed license, OR the non-owner possessor is being taught AT A RANGE/FACILITY.

*28.432 provides the exemptions for the concealed license holder or the antique pistol.

For some reason this is really getting my dander up.

Bronson

ETA: 1600 posts....woot!

True if they are under 18 years of age. Not true if they are 18 or older.

A home range certainly could be a recognized range, if it is a range....:D
 

NHCGRPR45

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
1,131
Location
Chesterfield Township, MI
xman, i agree. no one should be treated differently, that's why i'm suggesting the following law to replace all other firearms laws to include concealed and open carry:
"no person shall harm another person with a firearm. any person who violates this is guilty of... blah blah blah"
much simpler and clearer that way.

I like it however you didn't define "HARM" Let some douche like shumer loose on this and dirty looks and false tears will equal "HARM" or "HARMED" any idiot with slide bite or who is jumpy will claim foul!:eek:
 

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
I like it however you didn't define "HARM" Let some douche like shumer loose on this and dirty looks and false tears will equal "HARM" or "HARMED" any idiot with slide bite or who is jumpy will claim foul!:eek:

The definition of 'harm' is called out in the second 'blah'. Ya gotta read the whole thing!:D
 

Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
True if they are under 18 years of age. Not true if they are 18 or older.

Sorry V, you're incorrect. Sub-section 11 applies to minors, sub-section 12 puts the same restrictions on adults.

(12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
(a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.

(b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.

(c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.

(d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.

A home range certainly could be a recognized range, if it is a range....:D

Possibly. I know one person that has a home range and I don't know if it would count. What exactly is a "recognized" target range?

Bronson
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
Sorry V, you're incorrect. Sub-section 11 applies to minors, sub-section 12 puts the same restrictions on adults.





Possibly. I know one person that has a home range and I don't know if it would count. What exactly is a "recognized" target range?

Bronson

I really hate these F'ing laws!!!!!
 
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