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Thread: If "guns don't kill people, people kill people" do "guns save lives"?

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    If "guns don't kill people, people kill people" do "guns save lives"?

    A recent VCDL email brought up that guns don't kill people, people kill people. If this is the case (and I agree with the statement), how can we proudly wear bright orange buttons proclaiming that "Guns Save Lives". The gun, by itself saves no one. It is the armed (and I'd argue, trained) individual that saves lives. Are we no better than the libtards who blame the gun for killing so many, while we "blame" the gun for saving lives?

    We need a more correct slogan, such as "Armed individuals save lives" or "Bearing is Caring" (the girlfriend came up with that one).

    Thoughts?

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    I never thought of it like that before. But I guess you're kinda right...

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Because a gun alone cannot actively commit a crime, but the presence of one can functionally deter an assailant, even without being drawn.

    Therefor the mere presence of a gun does not in-and-of itself affect a criminal act, but it has the potential to prevent one.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Well it's an "in your face" sort of thing. In other words, the "Guns Saves Lives" slogan is the counter to the other side's "Guns kill" claim. Granted, guns certainly can kill, but the distinction is two-fold, as you inferred. Depending upon in whose had the gun his held will describe the outcome if the gun is used. A wonton murder or an excusable use of deadly force.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Because a gun alone cannot actively commit a crime, but the presence of one can functionally deter an assailant, even without being drawn.

    Therefor the mere presence of a gun does not in-and-of itself affect a criminal act, but it has the potential to prevent one.
    Good point, but what if it's concealed? bad guys don't see it?

    Also, I'd still argue just a gun sitting on a counter or laying on the floor(ie the mere presence of a gun) isn't going to prevent any crime. Now if it is somehow attached to a trained individual, yes, it may prevent crime therefore I'll still argue it is the armed individual that prevents crime or saves lives. It is not merely the gun. We need a new slogan.
    Last edited by Reverend73; 12-28-2011 at 03:56 PM.

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    "Bearing is Caring."

    I like that.

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    Regular Member Lincoln7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Because a gun alone cannot actively commit a crime, but the presence of one can functionally deter an assailant, even without being drawn.

    Therefor the mere presence of a gun does not in-and-of itself affect a criminal act, but it has the potential to prevent one.
    I think this is the best argument for the statement. I really got stumped when I read the OP's question but looks like we found an answer. Nice response, Wylde.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Well it's an "in your face" sort of thing. In other words, the "Guns Saves Lives" slogan is the counter to the other side's "Guns kill" claim.
    This ^^ .

    You have less than 1/2 second to get your statement out, and it needs to be short, sweet, and something that folks can remember.

    I like "Bearing is Caring" - shorter and sweeter than the 2nd Amendment Sisters' "Of Course I carry - Don't You?" I'd add a gun graphic (revolver or pistol, I'm not prejudiced) just so folks do not think I'm saying anything about having kids.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend73 View Post
    It is not merely the gun.
    It is the gun in the hands of someone who is determined not to become a victim.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    It is the gun in the hands of someone who is determined not to become a victim.
    Exactly. It all boils down to the individual. Same as it is with another Cho who wants to murder a number of people and has a gun in his hands.

    I just find it very hypocritical to say guns don't kill people, people kill people and then turn right around and say guns save lives.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Well it's an "in your face" sort of thing. In other words, the "Guns Saves Lives" slogan is the counter to the other side's "Guns kill" claim. Granted, guns certainly can kill, but the distinction is two-fold, as you inferred. Depending upon in whose had the gun his held will describe the outcome if the gun is used. A wonton murder or an excusable use of deadly force.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    This ^^ .

    You have less than 1/2 second to get your statement out, and it needs to be short, sweet, and something that folks can remember.

    I like "Bearing is Caring" - shorter and sweeter than the 2nd Amendment Sisters' "Of Course I carry - Don't You?" I'd add a gun graphic (revolver or pistol, I'm not prejudiced) just so folks do not think I'm saying anything about having kids.

    stay safe.
    I've never heard for sure what the origin is of "Guns Save Lives", but I agree here, that it's the mostly equivalent counter part to the anti-gun mantra. They ascribe a moral value to a gun which is evil, and wants to kill, so it's the other side of the logical coin, so to speak.

    As noted, the thinking side of society realizes that guns are simply tools, inanimate objects which help us to perform certain tasks. Those tasks can either be legal, moral and good, or not. There are many ways a gun can help to perform these tasks... as noted, the mere observation of a gun will sometimes influence people, in both good and bad ways. That is why you can be convicted of brandishing without even touching a gun, and as Wylde noted, why the presence of a "good guy" can sometimes thwart a crime.

    Logically speaking, I think we have to own up to the fact that "Guns Save Lives" is equally accurate to "Guns Kill People". They are nothing more than a tool, used in a variety of ways, to accomplish a certain task. But as Skidmark noted, it takes too long to say "People with Guns Save Lives", when you have but mere fractions of a second to make your point.

    BTW, how about this: "I care. I carry." Or any of several variations... I carry because I care. I care, therefore I carry... etc...

    TFred

    ETA: Besides, if anyone ever calls any of us out on the seeming double standard, it's really easy and quick to say: "Of course you're right, "PEOPLE WITH Guns Save Lives..." but your attention span is too short to get all that as you walk by someone wearing a button!"
    Last edited by TFred; 12-28-2011 at 04:56 PM.

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Guns SAVE Lives is a public relations/marketing tool designed to promote awareness of the right to defend oneself - to make people think.

    To that degree it is eminently successful. When it was coupled with the bright orange ball, it took on a life of its own. It has been quoted, shared untold numbers of times across the nation. It arguably is one the most highly recognized symbols/phrases of the RKBA community.

    See no reason to tamper with success of this kind.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Guns SAVE Lives is a public relations/marketing tool designed to promote awareness of the right to defend oneself - to make people think.

    To that degree it is eminently successful. When it was coupled with the bright orange ball, it took on a life of its own. It has been quoted, shared untold numbers of times across the nation. It arguably is one the most highly recognized symbols/phrases of the RKBA community.

    See no reason to tamper with success of this kind.
    I wasn't intending to or thinking that anyone else was intending to replace GSL... I agree, it's an excellent slogan!

    It's probably not bad to have more than one slogan.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I wasn't intending to or thinking that anyone else was intending to replace GSL... I agree, it's an excellent slogan!

    It's probably not bad to have more than one slogan.

    TFred
    Before we start trying to rethink Guns Save lives with a people Prose...remember that the anti's were strutting around with orange stickers that said "People Save People".

    But if we just have to have a stand in....


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I wasn't intending to or thinking that anyone else was intending to replace GSL... I agree, it's an excellent slogan!

    It's probably not bad to have more than one slogan.

    TFred
    Understand and agree.

    Then there is the slogan/sticker the antis used at the recent VCDL rallys - No Guns on Campus........it points out the obvious deficiency/problem.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    "Bearing is Caring."

    I like that.
    Not me. Reminds me of "Virginia is for lovers" which is not exactly how I view Virginia.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    It is the gun in the hands of someone who is determined not to become a victim.
    Yes sir!
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Understand and agree.

    Then there is the slogan/sticker the antis used at the recent VCDL rallys - No Guns on Campus........it points out the obvious deficiency/problem.
    Remember this one Grape?


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Remember this one Grape?
    I recognize the scene, but not the event - is that the anti's "People Save Lives" sticker?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I recognize the scene, but not the event - is that the anti's "People Save Lives" sticker?
    Yep, that's the people save lives sticker.

    This should jog your memory


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Yep, that's the people save lives sticker.

    This should jog your memory
    That was an eventful evening from the attempt to force signing in downstairs, to getting the zinger, and I'm still waiting for the response from the Mayor's Assistant.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That was an eventful evening from the attempt to force signing in downstairs, to getting the zinger, and I'm still waiting for the response from the Mayor's Assistant.
    I believe it was Ruth something, the Mayors assistant. I'm sure she will get in touch. It's only been 2 years, two months and 5 days.....not that I'm counting.

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    Even the relative likelihood of the presence of a gun can prevent crime, there need not actually be a gun visible. It is clear that criminals are emboldened in GFZ's, the kids play Knock Out King in DC subway stations, but not in VA, etc. So I don't think GSL can be equated with GDKP, PKP as a slogan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    ... the presence of one can functionally deter an assailant, even without being drawn...
    This.

    And for the concealed firearms question, the knowledge that a significant percentage of the victims are armed is a deterrent as well.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    "Bearing is Caring."

    I like that.
    This I would actually wear. I have never worn a button or sticker that says "Guns Saves Lives". I personally don't believe the statement since a gun is technically a weapon and can be used however the individual chooses to use it. However, I believe in us having our Constitutional RIGHT to carry openly or concealed.

    On that note, I do like the "Bearing is Caring" phrase. It shows that those who carry mean well.

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