Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Shooting at someone on purpose, at the range

  1. #1
    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Anderson, SC
    Posts
    531

    Shooting at someone on purpose, at the range

    WTF... Found this when searching for videos on Bersa's new BP CC 9mm single stack:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dYgM24M2Uk


  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    The higher the speed and the lower the drag the instructor claims, the more likely you are to see this sort of behavior. The implication is that the instructor is so skilled that they can always miss you, and that if you take their class you will become just as skilled.

    It's much the same as the instructors/schools that claim to operate under "big boy rules" for people that wear "big boy pants" - involving some shooters advancing ahead of the rest of the shooters because that will happen "in real life".

    Most of us are never going to be part of a stack charging up the stairs to take out Osama bin Laden, or busting through the plate glass window to take down a gang of bank robbers holding grannies and Girl Scouts hostage. So we do not go looking for trainers and training that expose us to such high levels of risk. Maybe Seal Team Six and Food Court Team Eight will face those situations and need to train like that. But they signed up knowing that they were going to go into extremely dangerous situations where they could be shot by either the "enemy" or their team buddy. Us "normal" folks generally do not look for that much excitement.

    Maybe the best we can do is expose those HS/LD folks - here's their sign
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	moran.jpg 
Views:	66 
Size:	17.8 KB 
ID:	7679

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  3. #3
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    1,637
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The higher the speed and the lower the drag the instructor claims, the more likely you are to see this sort of behavior. The implication is that the instructor is so skilled that they can always miss you, and that if you take their class you will become just as skilled.

    It's much the same as the instructors/schools that claim to operate under "big boy rules" for people that wear "big boy pants" - involving some shooters advancing ahead of the rest of the shooters because that will happen "in real life".

    Most of us are never going to be part of a stack charging up the stairs to take out Osama bin Laden, or busting through the plate glass window to take down a gang of bank robbers holding grannies and Girl Scouts hostage. So we do not go looking for trainers and training that expose us to such high levels of risk. Maybe Seal Team Six and Food Court Team Eight will face those situations and need to train like that. But they signed up knowing that they were going to go into extremely dangerous situations where they could be shot by either the "enemy" or their team buddy. Us "normal" folks generally do not look for that much excitement.

    Maybe the best we can do is expose those HS/LD folks - here's their sign
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	moran.jpg 
Views:	66 
Size:	17.8 KB 
ID:	7679

    stay safe.
    You mean...I'm never going to get to storm the house to help save girlscouts?

    I agree whole heartedly with you!

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787
    While I agree with you in principle, I do think the likelihood that a carrier (OC/CC) will be in the presence of a Luby's/Va Tech lunatic some time over the next decade is considerable. Therefore, it behooves us to be ready.

    I can think of half a dozen situations where I might have to shoot a BG in close quarters. Most will probably not be hostage situations. Instead, they'll probably be at a restaurant or other public location where missing the BG will endanger an innocent standing behind them or in front of them. Thus, my aim must be right on target. If it is a lunatic situation, they'll probably be blasting away with people running everywhere, so time is of the essence, as well.

    It's a delicate balance between time and accuracy, no doubt about it.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,217
    One of the things people forget, is that you can walk up to a BG and put the gun on them and pull the trigger. My partner used that solution to a hostage scenario I posed the other day. I complimented her on a great extemporaneous firing solution.

    If you're a small female and the BG is looking at your big hairy boyfriend as the threat, that kind of thing can work.

    On the OP, Absorb what is useful to you, disregard the rest. The 80/20 rule. Customize/personalize your training.

    It's all about the 'HOW', not the 'WHAT':

    o Decide what your goal is (this can be simple or pretty complicated. Think it out like a coding problem, flowchart it);
    o Find an expert who is accomplished at what you want to do. Copy them until you get results, try to understand what you're copying;
    o Fine tune your approach as you figure out WHY it works and can explain it clearly and concisely. Here you truly begin to absorb;
    o Eliminate anything that is counterproductive or non-essential, (Pareto principle, above) like a sculptor removing marble to reveal the statue/art;
    o Learn to create variations based on your knowledge of self. Master yourself first and you will win a thousand battles;
    o Innovate. Make it your own;
    o At some point break all the rules you learned (or be prepared to do so), and reassemble them;
    o When the student is ready the master appears;
    o Try to return to your original freedom (no mind).

    ...and things like that.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  6. #6
    Regular Member The_Pennsylvanian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Marshfield, WI
    Posts
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    One of the things people forget, is that you can walk up to a BG and put the gun on them and pull the trigger. My partner used that solution to a hostage scenario I posed the other day. I complimented her on a great extemporaneous firing solution.

    If you're a small female and the BG is looking at your big hairy boyfriend as the threat, that kind of thing can work.

    On the OP, Absorb what is useful to you, disregard the rest. The 80/20 rule. Customize/personalize your training.

    It's all about the 'HOW', not the 'WHAT':

    o Decide what your goal is (this can be simple or pretty complicated. Think it out like a coding problem, flowchart it);
    o Find an expert who is accomplished at what you want to do. Copy them until you get results, try to understand what you're copying;
    o Fine tune your approach as you figure out WHY it works and can explain it clearly and concisely. Here you truly begin to absorb;
    o Eliminate anything that is counterproductive or non-essential, (Pareto principle, above) like a sculptor removing marble to reveal the statue/art;
    o Learn to create variations based on your knowledge of self. Master yourself first and you will win a thousand battles;
    o Innovate. Make it your own;
    o At some point break all the rules you learned (or be prepared to do so), and reassemble them;
    o When the student is ready the master appears;
    o Try to return to your original freedom (no mind).

    ...and things like that.

    I caught at least one quote from "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu in there.An excellent book , and a must read !
    WI CCL # 27,4XX

  7. #7
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,217
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Pennsylvanian View Post
    I caught at least one quote from "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu in there.An excellent book , and a must read !
    Thanks. Hope my list helped some folks.

    I could write a book on 'How to Master Yourself'. It's very difficult, but there is a pathway (a delivery system, I call it).

    It takes about 4-6 weeks to master one aspect and if you stop practicing (it's a continuous process) it wears off in about a month. In fact I learned recently that one of my 'principles' was actually the reverse of what works (in some people).

    Here's an example. I usually tout the idea of 'playing positive tapes' and not having negative thoughts not saying "I can't" or "I don't". But I realized due to one person's comment that this is doesn't work a lot of the time. (yikes!). Research actually supports this.

    What actually works is mentally "playing a negative tape" (thinking negatively) because it makes (some) people become resolute in their quest to change. It's like 'taking yourself to task'.

    In fact, when I thought about it I realized that a lot of my successes, meager that they are, were achieved because I played negative tapes to myself. On the way to the gym I'd say 'gawd, you're a wussy, there's a girl that weighs 110lbs who can snatch 220lbs'. When I was biking I'd say near the end of a ride 'there are 50 year old women riding in triathlons who get a better time for 10 miles than this', and I'd get a burst of anger-energy.

    So, it's a process and the key is not what but how. Ability to correctly analyze, find root causes, make a framework, researching your own experience.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 12-30-2011 at 06:52 AM.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    While I agree with you in principle, I do think the likelihood that a carrier (OC/CC) will be in the presence of a Luby's/Va Tech lunatic some time over the next decade is considerable. Therefore, it behooves us to be ready.

    I can think of half a dozen situations where I might have to shoot a BG in close quarters. Most will probably not be hostage situations. Instead, they'll probably be at a restaurant or other public location where missing the BG will endanger an innocent standing behind them or in front of them. Thus, my aim must be right on target. If it is a lunatic situation, they'll probably be blasting away with people running everywhere, so time is of the essence, as well.

    It's a delicate balance between time and accuracy, no doubt about it.
    Not a bit of disagreement on anything you've said.

    But I can pracice precision shooting without actually endangering another person. Try, for example, tethering balloons on either side of your target - especially if you have access to swingers or twisting targets! Jog in place to get the heart rate up, then walk a figure-8 and have someone activate your target. Keep your bullet(s) from hitting the balloons while hitting the target. The point is that there is no need to take the risk, no matter how minimal, of hitting another person when you can create the same tight shooting line by other means.

    If you can't do movement at your favorite range, go get an airsoft of your handgun and practice shooting targets while walking/climbing/jumping through your house. Works especially well if there are all sorts of knick-knacks and breakables you have to miss. Or, for the faint of heart, shoot every other plate on a falling-plate set. Or get someone to call your target on a Texas Star. Remember, perfect practice makes perfect performance.

    On the other hand, if you want to know what it feels like to be shot at and are too old to join the military (most of which do not get shot at anyway) then there are some neighborhoods I can suggest you go visit. But I think the cops will treat you like the Game Wardens do hunters shooting over bait - if you survive to meet the cops.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Evansville, In.
    Posts
    1
    There are a LOT of videos of this guy doing similar things, the worst of which he fires a SHOTGUN loaded with birdshot at the target, with a live "hostage inches away.
    I'll try and find the video:
    Here's one, but it's not the worst of them.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5oop...eature=related

  10. #10
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Glendale, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    629
    Well first off that guy is not in the US where he would suffer great financial and legal ramification if there were any "accidents".

    If he had an accident he would probably drag them off into the forest and let the animals take care of the body.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •