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Thread: Kalamazoo County Fair Violates State preemption

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Kalamazoo County Fair Violates State preemption

    I realize that when the gun show comes into town and restricts carry that is violating preemption but my fear of going after that is no longer having a gun show in Kalamazoo anymore. This on the other hand, is a little different.

    Security: All containers, packages, persons, and vehicles are subject to search upon arrival at the Kalamazoo County Fair. The following items are not permitted on the fairgrounds by attendees: Alcoholic beverages. Concealed weapons (with or without permit with the exception of sworn Police officers).
    This is also on their website
    Complete policies available for review at any fair entrance or the fair office. This entertainment facility has a seating capacity of 2500 or more.
    Is anyone in Kalamazoo willing to help me look into this? I wonder if they're prohibit open carry even thought I think the whom seating capacity thing is B.S.

    EDIT: I would like to add no alcohol is even allowed at the fair by vendors or patrons. So it would seem even with them calling the seating capacity of 2,500 or more OC would still be legal with or without a CPL.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 12-30-2011 at 12:39 AM.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Here's an AGO that may prove useful, http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10195.htm

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Here's an AGO that may prove useful, http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10195.htm

    Bronson
    Thanks Bronson I did read through that. It is my understanding some of the fair is inside buildings that COULD have a seating capacity of over 2,500 but a lot of it is outside. Seems to me even if they call 2,500 it'll only apply to the buildings and not the outside fair.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    County Fairground Rental

    I worked to change the KalCo Parks regs in reference to carrying a handgun on Park property as their 'policy' was in violation of MI preemption, at the time. The 'policy' was subsequently changed to reflect State law.

    The issue here, as it is with any Gun Show, is the relationship between the 'Fair Management' and the Kalamazoo County Parks Dept. I'm assuming that if the 'Fair Management' leases the property from the County for the purpose of a Fair (as the Gun Show folks do for a 'Show'), then they may indeed be able to set their own policies and, for that matter, exclude anyone they choose for whatever reason (just like private property owners). I'm not sure on this; may need to see the actual contract. If it states something along the lines of 'the leasee will abide by all policies of the Kalamazoo County Parks Dept', and the Parks Dept. policy is to allow firearms, there may be an issue.

    One can open carry at an 2500+ seating entertainment venue if they have a CPL, just like you can open carry in a tavern with a CPL. In the case of the tavern, which is private property, you can be asked to leave under threat of trespass. The same may hold true at the 'Fair'.

    From 'Park Rules':

    "No person shall have in their possession or control any slingshot, bow and arrow, BB Gun, paint ball gun, fireworks or explosives within any parks except by prior written permission of the Commission.

    No person shall discharge any rifle, shotgun, pellet gun, air rifle, pistol, or other firearm in any park for any reason, provided that this rule shall not apply to any law enforcement officer acting in the course of his or her employment. Violations or criminal offenses involving the transportation, possession, brandishing or discharge of pistols, other firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms on County park property shall be prosecuted in accordance with local ordinance or state law."

    Note in the first 'rule', firearms are not mentioned - they maintain the power to control these other devices...
    Note in the second 'rule', 'Violations or criminal offenses... shall be prosecuted in accordance with local ordinance or state law'. This is a weakly stated policy that yes, indeed, the State of Michigan has addressed all this in its legislation, including preemption.

    Carry on

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlefler View Post
    I worked to change the KalCo Parks regs in reference to carrying a handgun on Park property as their 'policy' was in violation of MI preemption, at the time. The 'policy' was subsequently changed to reflect State law.

    The issue here, as it is with any Gun Show, is the relationship between the 'Fair Management' and the Kalamazoo County Parks Dept. I'm assuming that if the 'Fair Management' leases the property from the County for the purpose of a Fair (as the Gun Show folks do for a 'Show'), then they may indeed be able to set their own policies and, for that matter, exclude anyone they choose for whatever reason (just like private property owners). I'm not sure on this; may need to see the actual contract. If it states something along the lines of 'the leasee will abide by all policies of the Kalamazoo County Parks Dept', and the Parks Dept. policy is to allow firearms, there may be an issue.

    One can open carry at an 2500+ seating entertainment venue if they have a CPL, just like you can open carry in a tavern with a CPL. In the case of the tavern, which is private property, you can be asked to leave under threat of trespass. The same may hold true at the 'Fair'.

    From 'Park Rules':

    "No person shall have in their possession or control any slingshot, bow and arrow, BB Gun, paint ball gun, fireworks or explosives within any parks except by prior written permission of the Commission.

    No person shall discharge any rifle, shotgun, pellet gun, air rifle, pistol, or other firearm in any park for any reason, provided that this rule shall not apply to any law enforcement officer acting in the course of his or her employment. Violations or criminal offenses involving the transportation, possession, brandishing or discharge of pistols, other firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms on County park property shall be prosecuted in accordance with local ordinance or state law."

    Note in the first 'rule', firearms are not mentioned - they maintain the power to control these other devices...
    Note in the second 'rule', 'Violations or criminal offenses... shall be prosecuted in accordance with local ordinance or state law'. This is a weakly stated policy that yes, indeed, the State of Michigan has addressed all this in its legislation, including preemption.

    Carry on
    Thank you for your input. But just like the Arts and Beats and the Hoedown because it is on property owned by a locality they cannot restrict the carry of firearms. And someone without a CPL can open carry at a place that is an entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more. Unless it falls under a place listed on 750.234d.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CV67 PAT View Post
    How would this apply to Joe Louis Arena or Cobo Hall? Both are owned by the City of Detroit. Does this apply to all locally owned property? Or just some?
    Based on what I have learned from others on here it applies to all locally owned property.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    I cant imagine how it would go over showing up to the Joe OCing...I would guess youre not watching the wings play that night.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    I'm up in the air about it. An argument could be made that it's like public housing. The government owns the property, but the "renters" still have private property rights to the apartment/house their renting.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
    I'm up in the air about it. An argument could be made that it's like public housing. The government owns the property, but the "renters" still have private property rights to the apartment/house their renting.
    Well what gets me is they declare the entire fair an entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more. Much of the fair is outside and from what I can tell none of it is otherwise considered a PFZ when the fair is not going on.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    I cant imagine how it would go over showing up to the Joe OCing...I would guess youre not watching the wings play that night.
    You are probably right about not being allowed in but that does not mean they would not be violating the law. The Joe Louis Arena and Ford Field are both owned by a "Local Unit Of Government" so by law they should not be alllowed to limit legal carry of firearms.

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    How do you think you would go about claiming 1.) pre-emption and 2.) that you can legally OC in there? I wonder if theres a way to go about it...
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    How do you think you would go about claiming 1.) pre-emption and 2.) that you can legally OC in there? I wonder if theres a way to go about it...
    If I was trying to carry there it is easy to prove the arena is(1) owned by the City Of Detroit. Just look it up and print out the ownership, Joe Louis arena is owned by the City Of Detroit without a doubt. Pre-emption applies to a "Local Unit Of Government" which Detroit is. As far as legally being allowed to carry there the Michigan State Police update #86 seems to cover this part well. I know it is not law but have never been shown a law that differs from their understanding. That said I don't go to games even though my son works there.

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    It would be interesting to see how a situation would unfold if someone did try to lawfully OC into the building during a game.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    It would be interesting to see how a situation would unfold if someone did try to lawfully OC into the building during a game.
    They probably wouldn't allow you in, whether they can legally do that is another story. It's my understanding they allow off duty LEOs to carry there.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    So who is gonna do it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    So who is gonna do it?
    not me

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I have a feeling the Red Wings would get their lawyers involved.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital.
    http://miopencarry.weebly.com/
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital.
    http://miopencarry.weebly.com/
    Exemption for a CPL holder if they OC.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Exemption for a CPL holder if they OC.
    Does that apply to the venue (event holder, lessee) as well?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Exemption for a CPL holder if they OC.
    Actually the list he was showing appeared to be 750.234d. which CPL holders are completely exempt from OC or not. 28.425o would require OC and Joe Lewis would require OC.

    EDIT: Silly me! No cite!
    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the
    Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. (2) This section does not apply to any of the following: (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection
    (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that
    possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (c) A sports arena or stadium.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 01-06-2012 at 09:04 PM.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  22. #22
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Actually the list he was showing appeared to be 750.234d. which CPL holders are completely exempt from OC or not. 28.425o would require OC and Joe Lewis would require OC.

    EDIT: Silly me! No cite!
    I know that, But to save time and the fact you CAN NOT conceal carry in a sports arena, I just said to OC.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Does that apply to the venue (event holder, lessee) as well?
    I'm not aware of any statute that allows a lessee of local government property to circumvent preemption. In fact MOC has won some arguments with a festival on city property from banning firearms.

    It may be a gray area, but I think the argument can be made that if the facility is owned by a local unit of government they can not ban firearms.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  24. #24
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    double tap
    Last edited by stainless1911; 01-06-2012 at 09:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I have a feeling the Red Wings would get their lawyers involved.
    ...and what are they going to do about it?

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