Could you post a little fair use excerpt?
MP-Pistol.com member arrested at range for refusing illegal search by police.
Last edited by bmg50cal; 12-30-2011 at 06:59 PM.
Could you post a little fair use excerpt?
Posted @ 0701 CST 30DEC11
It's been about 12 hours since this happened and I'm still freakin' furious. I didn't get much sleep last night since I'm so emotionally charged up about this and I've been awake since 3:30 am since I couldn't sleep, so I apologize if I'm not entirely clear or coherent. I just gotta get this off my chest and vent to some fellow gun owners. I'll try to keep it short.
I took the day off yesterday to go to the range to finally shoot my new PS90. I was really looking forward to the trip since I've had the thing for about 6 months and still haven't fired it yet. After I parked and grabbed my range bag out of the trunk, I started walking toward the entrance and noticed two cops standing there with a folding table set up near the doors.
As I got closer, one of them approached me and told me to please step over and put my bags on the table. I asked "why?". The cop responded in a very belligerent tone of voice "just step over to the table and lets see some ID". Again I asked, "what is this about". Finally the other cop said "we need to check your firearms. We're performing a check on all firearms and you can't go in until we complete the check". Again I asked "why?". The belligerent cop said "we're just doing a check" and again demanded to see my ID.
I said "no, you can't just perform random searches of people's property without probable cause". This is where things started to go downhill. There was a bit more conversation about searching my bags and more of my refusal, reminding them that they had no right to do so. I believe I quoted the 4th amendment which really pissed them off and one of them commented that my rights don't matter in this case. Finally, belligerent cop said "if we don't search your bags then you can't go in", so I said "fine, I'll leave" and turned around and started to walk away. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw belligerent cop come at me and it was clear he was going to try something physical, so I braced myself. He grabbed me and tried to throw me to the ground, but I managed to slip loose and he ended up going down himself. Now the other cop is screaming at me to get down on the ground and I turn around to see him pointing his Glock at me. I cannot believe this is happening. An anticipated fun day at the range instantly turned into a nightmare.
They handcuffed me, sat me down on the sidewalk, emptied my pockets and then proceeded to search my range bags. They open my little rifle bag, find the PS90 and try to tell me it's an illegal gun and only military are allowed to have them. All the while, they keep going on about how they're going to come to my house to confiscate all my guns and how I'll never be allowed to own a gun again. They kept asking me all kinds of questions and kept going on about someone named Hector, but after they handcuffed me, I really wasn't listening and stopped talking to them.
Long story short, I was taken to jail, charged with disorderly conduct, assault on a police officer and resisting arrest. I sat there for most of the day before the wife came to bail me out. They gave me my wallet and keys back, but all the cash had been removed from my wallet (about $80) and my drivers license and FOID card were missing. When I asked the clerk about it, she eventually found my license and gave it back to me, but didn't know anything about the FOID card. I also got my range bag back, but it was empty and I didn't get the rifle bag. The PS90 with EOTech holo sight, two 50 round mags and 300 rounds of 5.7 hollow point ammo were gone and they wouldn't give it back to me. The total value of confiscated equipment, about $2200.
At that point, I was tired and just wanted to get out of there. We still needed to drive all the way back to the range to pick up my car. They apparently didn't bother to search the car thankfully, since everything was the way I left it.
While I was being processed at the police station, I found out why they were stopping and searching people at the range. Apparently, about a week ago there was an incident where a cop was shot. The cop is OK, but apparently some very specific ammunition was used and they were looking for anyone who might have it or a gun that could fire it. Somehow they got the idea to search everyone going to the range. I don't know what the logic is behind that decision or what the details are, but I'll try to find out more later. Apparently the cops are very upset about this shooting and are going crazy to find the shooter. Violating people's rights don't seem to be any of their concern, as long as they find their man.
Luckily, my wife works for a very large law firm in Chicago which is the exclusive firm for the CPD. I am going to talk with a lawyer later today about the whole ordeal.
Thanks for letting me vent.
I hate Illinois with a feverish passion!
I lived there for 2 years, suburb of Chicago. It almost makes CA look good! I know there laws are better, but I can deal with most cops in CA, IL I cant deal with. Im angry just thinking about the state right now!
I'm not sure if I'm alone in this because this is kind of a bold statement, but it really bothers me that cops are untouchable. That they can pull these shenanigans and get away with it. That there's hundreds of cops I would consider just as big of a threat as a Meth head out of Meth yet any type of defense against them and you're done for. You have no rights against cops, its actually a pretty scary feeling. I read these forums a lot about encounters and the only fear anyone here seems to have is police run ins, because really what are you gonna do? Record them? Heck they could grab your device, smash it then arrest you and simply state that you swung on him. That is fact and its scary. I know there's good cops and they have a tough job but their image as a whole is ruined
Actually, they are not untouchable..they want to think they are though. Maybe within their department, but if you file a federal suit they can be touched...their own personal wallets too, not just the depatments.
W .... T ..... F ...????!!!!
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It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.
Hee, hee, hee. If the OPers story is true, well, the cops screwed up badly. Let their arrogance and protect-the-clan attitude run away with them, right over the 4th Amendment's guarantee of security from unreasonable searches and seizures.
Hmmmm. Lemme see. No probable cause. No warrant. No recognized warrant exception. The only reasoning being that anybody who arrived at the range--walked into the spider's parlor--was gonna get searched. And then assaulted him. And, falsely arrested him.
My, oh, my. Is that bacon I smell frying? I hope he sues. For a lot of money.
Law enforcement is NOT untouchable, but once they make the decision to violate your rights by illegally arresting you, I would think you need to listen especially if they tell you to get on the ground.
The street is not the place to try to explain to a LEO about your rights and blah blah blah, that what court is for, the LEO already made up his mind about what hes going to do. Your going there anyways, why make it worse! Just wait till your sprung, keep your mouth shut, and sue sue sue.
Good luck on your case!
Freedom isn't free, but this is America! We will find a way to outsource it and save some money - Jeremy
Wow. He was doing ok until he made the LEO, who tried to grab him, fall on his ass. That's going to look worse than bad in court, especially in IL. I know it's a natural reaction to snap away from someone trying to grab you, so I don't know if I would have done the same thing or not. I would try my best to take it in the butt and fight it in court, but a natural reaction is hard to overcome, sometimes. Anyway, as everyone has read, it appears those particular LEOs didn't like it when he stood up to them.
I have to admit, my heart rate went up a bit and I had hatred for almost every cop and government authority on the planet for a few seconds, while reading the guys post. I know there are "good" and "bad" employees in all lines of work, which I have to keep reminding myself, but the LEOs' behavior in the posted situation seemed uncalled for.
Last edited by carsontech; 12-31-2011 at 05:24 AM.
That's a good point, its good to remind yourself that not ALL LEOs are bad, but equally as important LEOs need to remember that not all citizens they encounter are bad.
Freedom isn't free, but this is America! We will find a way to outsource it and save some money - Jeremy
Seems like the guy stumbled into a payday. Best of luck to him.
Since his wife works for the CPD's exclusive law firm, conflict of interest issue should be interesting.
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
This is a prime example of another reason I love being a gun owner in VA. CHP cost me $15, I can OC any type of gun, no matter what size, mag capacity, or type.
In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
It seems like we should stop calling them LEOs. It's not a very accurate description anymore.
"It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip
How about just enFORCEment officers?
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"The total amount assessed for processing an application for a permit shall not exceed $50, with such fees to be paid in one sum to the person who accepts the application."
There are still some restrictions/limitations i.e Class III and Street Sweeper.
You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC
Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.
I'm surprised two more officers weren't added to the one already shot.
Assault, kidnapping, burglary..etc
Get a copy of the report, I guarantee they'll embellish it.
You're not alone in thinking that, and yes, while they're violating you they are untouchable.Originally Posted by cotillion
Once you call your lawyer, they become very very 'touchable'.
If your state has good laws, the damages you will be awarded will come from the officers, not the department / gov't.
Jail guards are worse. Don't get me started on them.Originally Posted by cotillion
Originally Posted by CitizenWhat they said.Originally Posted by jeremy05
While you're in custody, amuse yourself by dreaming up ways to spend the $$$$ that will (eventually) be coming your way.
+1 Any criminal is going to see the cops & drive on past.Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
I thought all ammo purchases were registered in IL? Or is that just Chitcago?
If the ammo was so strange, why couldn't they trace it?
Looking forward to seeing what becomes of this case.
Wonder if the range has video of the parking lot? Heck, they had to consent to the OEO* being there violating people, so isn't the range partially liable?
I think this should be moved (or at least reposted) to the IL forum, since it happened to someone there, even though the post that's copied was on a MN list.
*Opinion Enforcement Officers
Last edited by MKEgal; 12-31-2011 at 04:42 PM.
Originally Posted by MLK, JrOriginally Posted by MSG LaigaieOriginally Posted by Proverbs 27:12Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
IIRC, a FOID card is required to buy ammo and use gun ranges in IL.
So, once again those with arrest privilages are targeting citizens that legally own firearms rather than looking for criminals.
I hope that the range has cameras on the exterior that the victim can use to prove his cases, as the average citizen (jurist) has a hard time believing the police commit crimes against the law abiding.
If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.
Well this absolutely sucks for you. Good luck with the lawyer and keep us apraised, as much as the lawyer allows you.
I was speaking about this over breakfast, and the cops were just plain dumb. They could have done alot better to pose as a University science team and hand out surveys to people as they walk in asking about the types and amounts of ammo people use.
Make it look as innocent and consensual as possible and they'd get alot farther. >.<
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"A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"
"According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)
Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....
It is easier to follow this reading the thread proper over at mp-pistol.com, but here are the updated posts. I hope this guy gets his situation turned around...
More posts from the OP
Time of post - 0618 CST 31DEC11
Well, I was up early at 4:00 am this morning since I couldn't sleep again due to the anxiety of this situation. But, I feel better after reading your replies since it gives me hope, although my hands are shaking right now since I'm so livid. Reading all this reminds me of what I have yet to deal with.
I briefly spoke with one of the lawyers and he referred me to an associate of his at a different firm who deals with this sort of thing. I happened to mention these forums and he recommended that if I am to discuss this at all, I shouldn't give any specifics or names just yet for my own protection and for those involved. Sound advice I guess. Unfortunately, this other lawyer is out until sometime next week due to the holidays.
I should have mentioned that this did NOT take place within the city of Chicago. It was an outlying suburb a good distance outside the city, but I don't want to give the exact name and location per advice from the lawyer. Pretty sure the PS90 is not illegal since the gun shop that sold it to me had three of them on display and also sold the 50 round mags. They are in IL about 10 miles from the range. I trust those guys since they've been in business forever and know what they're doing and wouldn't sell something illegal. I also couldn't find anything anywhere that states the PS90 is illegal in IL, as long as it has the 16 inch barrel and can't fire full auto.
For those who are unfamiliar with the FOID card. It's a card you must obtain from the State Police before you are allowed to own or purchase a firearm. I believe it can by taken away at any time at police discretion. As far as I know, there is no gun registration associated with the card. We don't have gun registration in IL except in Chicago. I think the only way the government can know which guns I own is to check the records of the gun stores I purchased from.
As for the encounter, I was mostly polite and civil with the possible exception of me raising my voice a bit to try and speak. You see, every time I'd try to speak, the belligerent cop would immediately talk over me and begin shouting. I couldn't get a word in and trying to have a conversation with this guy was pointless. Now that I look back on the situation, I believe he was trying to intimidate me, but it wasn't working. When I wouldn't submit, he got even more loud and angry. When I turned to leave, he thought it was a direct assault on his authority and he snapped, then in a fit of rage, tried to tackle me. It seemed that they were determined to search my bags no matter what and they weren't going to let me leave until that was done.
As for your advice about asking "am I free to leave", I didn't do that unfortunately, even though I know that's what I should've done. I just turned and left, or at least tried to leave. They never said I was being detained. I guess I shouldn't have thrown the 4th amendment out there either since it only added fuel to the situation, but I really wanted to let them know that I understood what my rights were under the law. But why should I fear the police? That's just not right. What have we become as a nation when citizens fear their own citizen police force? Now more than ever, I really believe it's imperative we have a citizen oversight committee that monitors the police.
The threat they made about coming to my house and confiscating all my guns has me worried and I'm taking it seriously. Later today, a family member of mine is stopping by to pick up most of my guns and ammo and will store them at his house for safe keeping. The only thing I'm hanging on to is my M&P15, five full mags and 500 rounds of .223. I keep thinking about whether I will need to use the M&P15 if they bust down my door. I would assume they'd have some kind of warrant before they attempted that, but you never know these days.
Again, thanks for your support. You guys have been my anchor to sanity during this craziness.
Time of post 1111 CST 31DEC11
The above is correct as far as I know, with the exception, of course, of the national instant background check. Nobody in the US can purchase a gun from a gun shop without going through that check. There is no gun registration that I know of and it's not associated with the FOID card, unless the gun shop has been entering the guns I buy into a government database that I don't know about. I don't think that's the case though.OP said there was no gun reg. in IL except for Chicago.
OP said there was no gun registration associated with the FOID card.
OP alludes to there being no other requirement for owning/purchasing a firearm in Illinois other than holding a FOID card.
As for the retired cop claiming BS since he can't find a news story about it. Think about the huge amount of crime that happens in this god-forsaken state every day. Only the really big stories make the papers. I don't know anything about this cop who was supposedly shot with illegal ammo, all I know is they told me he wasn't hurt. For all I know, these cops who were set up at the range were just feeding me a BS story, which is probably the case the more I think about it and it was just another tactic for them to search my bag. I haven't done any searches about cops being shot, because even if it were true, I really don't care because it has little bearing on my case. I'm only concerned with getting my stuff back and seeing what can be done with the two cops for violating my rights.
As for me keeping my rifle for defense, why do you think that's wrong? I haven't said that I'd use it against the police if they raided my house, but I'm thinking about it. I've had cops threaten to come to my house and take the rest of my firearms by force. What would you do?
I've done my best to keep this conversation civil and I'd like it to stay that way. I'd prefer that it not be taken over by LEO's who are going to call BS and attempt to discredit me to try and protect their own.