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Arrested at range for refusing illegal search by police

TechnoWeenie

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I'm surprised two more officers weren't added to the one already shot.

Assault, kidnapping, burglary..etc

Get a copy of the report, I guarantee they'll embellish it.
 

MKEgal

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in front of my computer, WI
cotillion said:
I'm not sure if I'm alone in this because this is kind of a bold statement, but it really bothers me that cops are untouchable. That they can pull these shenanigans and get away with it.
You're not alone in thinking that, and yes, while they're violating you they are untouchable.
Once you call your lawyer, they become very very 'touchable'.
If your state has good laws, the damages you will be awarded will come from the officers, not the department / gov't.

cotillion said:
You have no rights against cops, its actually a pretty scary feeling.
Jail guards are worse. Don't get me started on them.

Citizen said:
If the OPers story is true, well, the cops screwed up badly.
... I hope he sues. For a lot of money.
jeremy05 said:
...wait till your [sic] sprung, keep your mouth shut, and sue sue sue.
What they said.
While you're in custody, amuse yourself by dreaming up ways to spend the $$$$ that will (eventually) be coming your way.

SouthernBoy said:
what is the likelihood of the perp deciding to go to an indoor range AFTER he has shot a police officer?
+1 Any criminal is going to see the cops & drive on past.
I thought all ammo purchases were registered in IL? Or is that just Chitcago?
If the ammo was so strange, why couldn't they trace it?

Looking forward to seeing what becomes of this case.
Wonder if the range has video of the parking lot? Heck, they had to consent to the OEO* being there violating people, so isn't the range partially liable?

I think this should be moved (or at least reposted) to the IL forum, since it happened to someone there, even though the post that's copied was on a MN list.

*Opinion Enforcement Officers
 
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Marco

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Jul 29, 2007
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Greene County
Just another reason not to visit IL.

IIRC, a FOID card is required to buy ammo and use gun ranges in IL.
So, once again those with arrest privilages are targeting citizens that legally own firearms rather than looking for criminals.

I hope that the range has cameras on the exterior that the victim can use to prove his cases, as the average citizen (jurist) has a hard time believing the police commit crimes against the law abiding.
 

Baked on Grease

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Jul 4, 2011
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Sterling, Va.
Well this absolutely sucks for you. Good luck with the lawyer and keep us apraised, as much as the lawyer allows you.

I was speaking about this over breakfast, and the cops were just plain dumb. They could have done alot better to pose as a University science team and hand out surveys to people as they walk in asking about the types and amounts of ammo people use.

Make it look as innocent and consensual as possible and they'd get alot farther. >.<

Sent using tapatalk
 

bmg50cal

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Jan 20, 2011
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It is easier to follow this reading the thread proper over at mp-pistol.com, but here are the updated posts. I hope this guy gets his situation turned around...

More posts from the OP

Time of post - 0618 CST 31DEC11

http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.p...rch-by-police/page__view__findpost__p__317218

Well, I was up early at 4:00 am this morning since I couldn't sleep again due to the anxiety of this situation. But, I feel better after reading your replies since it gives me hope, although my hands are shaking right now since I'm so livid. Reading all this reminds me of what I have yet to deal with.

I briefly spoke with one of the lawyers and he referred me to an associate of his at a different firm who deals with this sort of thing. I happened to mention these forums and he recommended that if I am to discuss this at all, I shouldn't give any specifics or names just yet for my own protection and for those involved. Sound advice I guess. Unfortunately, this other lawyer is out until sometime next week due to the holidays.

I should have mentioned that this did NOT take place within the city of Chicago. It was an outlying suburb a good distance outside the city, but I don't want to give the exact name and location per advice from the lawyer. Pretty sure the PS90 is not illegal since the gun shop that sold it to me had three of them on display and also sold the 50 round mags. They are in IL about 10 miles from the range. I trust those guys since they've been in business forever and know what they're doing and wouldn't sell something illegal. I also couldn't find anything anywhere that states the PS90 is illegal in IL, as long as it has the 16 inch barrel and can't fire full auto.

For those who are unfamiliar with the FOID card. It's a card you must obtain from the State Police before you are allowed to own or purchase a firearm. I believe it can by taken away at any time at police discretion. As far as I know, there is no gun registration associated with the card. We don't have gun registration in IL except in Chicago. I think the only way the government can know which guns I own is to check the records of the gun stores I purchased from.

As for the encounter, I was mostly polite and civil with the possible exception of me raising my voice a bit to try and speak. You see, every time I'd try to speak, the belligerent cop would immediately talk over me and begin shouting. I couldn't get a word in and trying to have a conversation with this guy was pointless. Now that I look back on the situation, I believe he was trying to intimidate me, but it wasn't working. When I wouldn't submit, he got even more loud and angry. When I turned to leave, he thought it was a direct assault on his authority and he snapped, then in a fit of rage, tried to tackle me. It seemed that they were determined to search my bags no matter what and they weren't going to let me leave until that was done.

As for your advice about asking "am I free to leave", I didn't do that unfortunately, even though I know that's what I should've done. I just turned and left, or at least tried to leave. They never said I was being detained. I guess I shouldn't have thrown the 4th amendment out there either since it only added fuel to the situation, but I really wanted to let them know that I understood what my rights were under the law. But why should I fear the police? That's just not right. What have we become as a nation when citizens fear their own citizen police force? Now more than ever, I really believe it's imperative we have a citizen oversight committee that monitors the police.

The threat they made about coming to my house and confiscating all my guns has me worried and I'm taking it seriously. Later today, a family member of mine is stopping by to pick up most of my guns and ammo and will store them at his house for safe keeping. The only thing I'm hanging on to is my M&P15, five full mags and 500 rounds of .223. I keep thinking about whether I will need to use the M&P15 if they bust down my door. I would assume they'd have some kind of warrant before they attempted that, but you never know these days.

Again, thanks for your support. You guys have been my anchor to sanity during this craziness.



Time of post 1111 CST 31DEC11

http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.p...rch-by-police/page__view__findpost__p__317248

OP said there was no gun reg. in IL except for Chicago.

OP said there was no gun registration associated with the FOID card.

OP alludes to there being no other requirement for owning/purchasing a firearm in Illinois other than holding a FOID card.

The above is correct as far as I know, with the exception, of course, of the national instant background check. Nobody in the US can purchase a gun from a gun shop without going through that check. There is no gun registration that I know of and it's not associated with the FOID card, unless the gun shop has been entering the guns I buy into a government database that I don't know about. I don't think that's the case though.

As for the retired cop claiming BS since he can't find a news story about it. Think about the huge amount of crime that happens in this god-forsaken state every day. Only the really big stories make the papers. I don't know anything about this cop who was supposedly shot with illegal ammo, all I know is they told me he wasn't hurt. For all I know, these cops who were set up at the range were just feeding me a BS story, which is probably the case the more I think about it and it was just another tactic for them to search my bag. I haven't done any searches about cops being shot, because even if it were true, I really don't care because it has little bearing on my case. I'm only concerned with getting my stuff back and seeing what can be done with the two cops for violating my rights.

As for me keeping my rifle for defense, why do you think that's wrong? I haven't said that I'd use it against the police if they raided my house, but I'm thinking about it. I've had cops threaten to come to my house and take the rest of my firearms by force. What would you do?

I've done my best to keep this conversation civil and I'd like it to stay that way. I'd prefer that it not be taken over by LEO's who are going to call BS and attempt to discredit me to try and protect their own.


 

Badger Johnson

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USA
AS SOON as the OP saw the cops sitting at the table he should have gone back to his car and driven away. Once he made brief contact, he should have said 'OK, thanks, I'll go get a passport or a picture ID', and then driven away, not to return.

IMO, he caused some of this himself by arguing with a LEO. You should NOT do that. KYBMS, and don't try to be a street lawyer.

Having said that I'm sorry it happened to him - totally wrong (don't know Illinois law, IANAL). Hope we can learn from this. The time to stand up for 2A and 4A rights is not in the middle of the street (except for the basic OC 'why am I being detained mantra').

$.02
 

Eeyore

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Aug 25, 2007
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the meanest city in the stupidest state
The Math Doesn't Work

As outrageous as this incident may be, I'm afraid that there may not be any justice thru the courts. As I see it, the math adds up this way:

1 LAC + 0 voice/video recording + 0 witnesses < 2 cops

Admittedly, I'm making an assumption about the number of recordings and witnesses, and that both cops will back each other up on their story. But unless the OP can find another way to balance this equation, he's probably going to have to deal with the criminal charges, and not get any satisfaction in civil court either.
 

celticredneck

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Jul 23, 2008
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Amelia County, virginia
From what Clerk of Court, in what municipality, do you get a Va. CHP for $15.00?

"The total amount assessed for processing an application for a permit shall not exceed $50, with such fees to be paid in one sum to the person who accepts the application."
http://198.246.135.1/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

There are still some restrictions/limitations i.e Class III and Street Sweeper.


Amelia County is supposed to charge only the background check fees. However in the only two cases I know of, mine and my wife's, both permits cost a lot more. Mine came in at $45 and by the time we paid a lawyer to get the sheriff. to understand that he couldn't write hiis own issue rules, my wife's permit was over $900
 

HandyHamlet

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Terra, Sol
AS SOON as the OP saw the cops...

He should have stopped right there. Immediately called his attorney. Then taken pictures of the thugs. And finally he should have prepared to be slammed to the ground. If this is a true story he was never getting out of that no matter what he did. If he tried to drive away they would have executed him right there.

As outrageous as this incident may be, I'm afraid that there may not be any justice thru the courts. As I see it, the math adds up this way:

1 LAC + 0 voice/video recording + 0 witnesses < 2 cops

It is still a felony wiretap charge to audio record thugs in the very corrupt and very bankrupt and very scary fascist land of IL.
 

DangerClose

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The mean streets of WI
The one guy in that thread says he has friends in the A.G. office and that they would investigate right now with more info but thinks the guy is lying because the story doesn't make sense. Strange.

As for legality of the guy's gun, if he was outside Chicago but still in Cook County, pretty sure Cook County still has a 10-round capacity limit. Such a lame county. I have it on secondhand knowledge that the police say they don't enforce crap like that. But, it's still on the books, so watch it.

This is a prime example of another reason I love being a gun owner in VA. CHP cost me $15, I can OC any type of gun, no matter what size, mag capacity, or type.

In WI you can open carry all that without paying $15 or having an ID card. :D

It still often shocks me at some of the stupid gun laws some states have. I can't have a mag that's over 10 rounds because the 11th round is so deadly? I can't buy ammo without a state permit? Who writes this crap? Hell, open carry is banned in Texas. Texas! What's that all about? :lol:
 
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Grapeshot

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---snip---

In WI you can open carry all that without paying $15 or having an ID card. :D

It still often shocks me at some of the stupid gun laws some states have. I can't have a mag that's over 10 rounds because the 11th round is so deadly? I can't buy ammo without a state permit? Who writes this crap? Hell, open carry is banned in Texas. Texas! What's that all about? :lol:

In VA no permit is required to OC except in our state capitol and General Assembly Building.
 

lockman

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Aug 19, 2006
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Elgin, Illinois, USA
The OP will not even name the jurisdiction Where it occurred. That is not by any means release of confidential or incriminating information.

I guess time will tell but until some basic verifying information is forthcoming I am very skeptical.
 

Badger Johnson

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He should have stopped right there. Immediately called his attorney. Then taken pictures of the thugs. And finally he should have prepared to be slammed to the ground. If this is a true story he was never getting out of that no matter what he did. If he tried to drive away they would have executed him right there.

No, they were (according to the story) manning a table and said (he said) without 'blah-blah' you can't go into the range. He should have returned to the car then. AFTER an argument and confrontational action, YES, then they may have not let him drive away. But as you analyze it, it makes less sense as told. It wasn't a 'roadblock', it was just a 'survey table' (do LEOs even do that?).

It is still a felony wiretap charge to audio record thugs in the very corrupt and very bankrupt and very scary fascist land of IL.

But you can video them without audio and not be cited under the wiretap law (I believe, but IANAL nor have I knowledge of the IL wiretap law). Video them from inside the OP's car with doors shut and you should be OK. THAT is why I keep saying in messages and posts and replies...GET VIDEO, forget chasing after the guy, forget trying to brandish, or trying to shoot him. A video gets a license number, physical details, time of day. A video is a powerful weapon in preserving rights and preventing false charges. You don't even need audio in many cases. In the future if we have the ability to automatically video to a secure off-site server, a lot of these rights violations will stop happening (or depts will run out of money to settle lawsuits.

In conclusion, I'm with some members on this thread - this account sounds a -little- dodgy on the face of it.
 
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zoom6zoom

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Jun 24, 2006
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Dale City, VA, Virginia, USA
I don't know how many of us would have turned around and left just because there were two cops sitting at a table. For all he knew when walking up they could have been recruiting, selling candy bars or running a "buy back".
 
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