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Thread: Just got my Utah CPL

  1. #1
    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    Just got my Utah CPL

    Just a bit of a update for some of you, a few months ago I posted about getting my Utah non resident concealed weapons permit and after nearly two months of waiting it finally came! I took the class at whole sale sports in Silverdale, it was a taught by a Washington state native who was born and raised in Elma. He now lives in Utah and fly's to Washington once a month with his wife to teach the class. His class is slightly different than the states class. The instructor developed his own program witch he got approved by the state of Utah. The class was four hours long not including fingerprinting, photos and paper work. While I did not agree with everything that he taught I did agree with the majority of it. This would be a great class for anyone new to firearms to take. The class went through ALL of the basics. The basics of handguns, what a revolver is, what a automatic is, what they looks like, how to load them, how they differs from each other. He tough the differences between kill shots and wound shots and why we only shoot to kill, never wound. Shooting stances, breathing techniques, how to clear jams you name it he went over it. One of the things I did not agree with that came out of the instructors mouth is he told the entire class not to buy Sepra holsters as the cause miss fires due to improper finger placement when the shooter draws his weapon. He told the class Serpa holsters are designed to place the shooters finger on the trigger when they draw their gun. The class did have what I interpreted as a anti open carry feel even though he never mentioned it directly. At one point I raised my hand and asked the instructor what he thought about OC. He told me he respects people who open carry but he said he never does because it "gives away my element of surprise"
    The second half of the class was all laws he is required to teach Utah state law even though it has no meaning to us here, you have to sit though it if you want to get your card. The laws may not have been relevant but I did like the way he talked about the possible consequences for having to shoot someone. He went over all the possible out comes if we ever have to defend our self's. Some of them possessive some of them not. He did not go out of his way to scare the class but made it clear even if we do everything right we could still wind up in jail if only for a short time.
    There may have been a few things I did not agree with but overall thought it was a good class and good review for everyone. The class was 140 dollars (65 for the class and 75 in fees) and is honored in 30 states including Washington and is good for 5 years. You will need to have your WA state CPL before you can get your Utah permit, but this can be done after you take the class if need be. The other good thing to know is even though your Utah permit is good in 30 states Utah law does not fallow your Utah permit, you must follow every states individual laws. While it was a little annoying to have to sit though a class to get a CPL and I feel a violation of the second amendment it does give me a lot of freedom
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

  2. #2
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Head shots can be more effective than torso shots in stoping a threat. If the threat is wearing body armor the head shot may be your only viable option.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    Head shots can be more effective than torso shots in stoping a threat. If the threat is wearing body armor the head shot may be your only viable option.
    Also more effective when defending yourself from a dreaded 'wack-a-mole' attack.



    NavyLCDR is right on imho. You are not an executioner, you're a man defending himself or a loved one out of necessity.

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    NavyLCDR is spot on.

    It sounds like your instructor needs to go back to school, very poor instruction IMHO.

    This is typical of a lot of firearms instructors they teach their opinion not the facts.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    ...The instructor developed his own program witch he got approved by the state of Utah....He tough the differences between kill shots and wound shots and why we only shoot to kill, never wound....
    I guarantee he did not inform UT BCI that he was going to teach 'shoot to "kill."'

    As mentioned, we shoot to stop. Our best chance to do so safely is USUALLY center of exposed mass. It's not our problem if the perp's boiler room is in the same spot.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    He did not go out of his way to scare the class but made it clear even if we do everything right we could still wind up in jail if only for a short time.
    While one might want to disagree or resist the idea of going to jail in a self defense shooting, well it does and can happen and I feel it does need to be considered by those who choose to use deadly force.

    Others have already covered points I have issues with.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I guarantee he did not inform UT BCI that he was going to teach 'shoot to "kill."'

    As mentioned, we shoot to stop. Our best chance to do so safely is USUALLY center of exposed mass. It's not our problem if the perp's boiler room is in the same spot.
    This was a difficult point in the class to try and explain to you if you where not there. I guess he did not say shoot to kill as much as that was my interpretation. He never said "this is when to stop shooting" that was just what I thought he was saying
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    His class is slightly different than the states class. The instructor developed his own program witch he got approved by the state of Utah.
    You point out a major issue with "training" unless it's part of a formal LEO/Military certification program. Everyone gets to teach what THEY think, no standardization or "peer review" of he curriculum.

    Just like his comments on the SERPA holster. He clearly doesn't know how it works, hasn't used one, or both. The release tab lines up with the bottom of the slide or top of the frame on all mine, not the trigger.

    Lack of uniformity in training doesn't really help, it usually just confuses. Utah requires you sit in a class and Washington State requires no training. Which State has a better crime/safety record?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    this is kind of a mute point...
    Sorry, "Grammar Nazi" attack


    mute
    Adjective:
    Refraining from speech or temporarily speechless.
    Noun:
    A person without the power of speech.
    Verb:
    Deaden, muffle, or soften the sound of.
    Synonyms:
    silent - speechless - voiceless - tongue-tied


    moot
    Adjective:
    Subject to debate, dispute, or uncertainty, and typically not admitting of a final decision.
    Verb:
    Raise (a question or topic) for discussion; suggest (an idea or possibility).
    Synonyms:
    adjective. debatable - disputable - controversial - arguable
    verb. discuss - debate - dispute - canvass - talk over - argue

    moot point:

    In American law, a matter is moot if further legal proceedings with regard to it can have no effect, or events have placed it beyond the reach of the law. Thereby the matter has been deprived of practical significance or rendered purely academic.


    The use of "mute" in this case falls in the same category as "squashed warrants".
    Last edited by amlevin; 01-01-2012 at 11:15 AM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post

    The use of "mute" in this case falls in the same category as "squashed warrants".
    This one is warrantless.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    This post is very timely for me. I am moving to Seattle in January. I am a fire arms instructor and teach both NRA certifications and Colorado, Wyoming and Florida CCW classes (Florida gives you 32 soon to be 33 states, Utah gives you 34). It's a large part of my income. Many states require some documented formal training for CCW application however my research shows me that Washington state does not. I'd be interested to know what the market is like out in Washington state for these sorts of classes.

    My class covers
    Licensing requirements
    Responsibilities of the concealed carry permit holder
    laws regarding use of force as a defense
    Use of force
    When confronted by law enforcement
    Reciprocity
    Different methods of carrying
    Gun safety
    Gun storage
    Other defensive options (Less than lethal Weapons)

    I won't go into what I think of the OC's experience with the other instructors course but I will say including personal or political agenda as part of the course is a major no no. And I am 1000% in agreement of the concept shoot to "eliminate the threat" but never "Shoot to kill". And I cover that extensively in my class, along with everything else the OP listed.

    I do however want to personally comment on the Serpa holsters. I am a big fan of open carry and most of my open carry devices are Serpa. I practice regularly with it and used it extensively during my time in the Army. At no point have I ever had a problem drawing with it both in practice and active threat situations. In point of fact the design specifically seems to reinforce the safe trigger finger outside of the trigger guard. When you press the release button to slide the fire arm out of the holster as long as you keep your finger straight you will find your trigger finger outside of the trigger guard and along the side of the gun below the slide. I tested this before posting to ensure I was correct with both my 1911 and Glock OC fire arms. While I have tested many of the open carry devices out on the market I have found the Serpa system to be best in both function and price. While this is an opinion it is based on years of experience in the field. I highly recommend the Serpa system to all my students who look to carry either OC or CC.

  12. #12
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Dammit. Or is it damnit? Or damn it?



    My personal opinion, given the topics, probably not much interest. Since we have to get the Washington CPL anyway to carry in Washington as a resident of Washington, and the class is not required for that permit, I don't think many people would pay for instruction in the topics listed as applies to the Washington CPL. Some in Washington might be interested in expanding their reciprocity by obtaining an out of state permit, and those classes might be somewhat more popular.
    If the "National Reciprocity" bill passes?????????

    As for "Dammit", or "Damnit", even "Damn it". I just use my favorite four-lettered word that starts with the 6th letter of the alphabet.
    Last edited by amlevin; 01-01-2012 at 01:32 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    My personal opinion, given the topics, probably not much interest. Since we have to get the Washington CPL anyway to carry in Washington as a resident of Washington, and the class is not required for that permit, I don't think many people would pay for instruction in the topics listed as applies to the Washington CPL. Some in Washington might be interested in expanding their reciprocity by obtaining an out of state permit, and those classes might be somewhat more popular.
    Understood, but do you know what to do when confronted by a threat? Beyond the immediate threat to your person are there any other considerations and how do you handle them? Do you know what your immediate steps are after you have eliminated the threat? What do you say or not say to law enforcement after a incident? How to handle approaching law enforcement after a incident? Who do you call for help if arrested or charged (not every lawyer knows how to handle the law specific to self protection)?

    While it may not be required for the Washington State CPL it does not mean the information is useless. My class might not be targeted at you as a potential customer. I suspect given your screen name you are well versed in handling a fire arm. And given that you are a member of Opencarry.org, you've probably taken the steps to learn much of these things but I bet 75% of the concealed carry public do not know what to do when confronted by a threat beyond draw and pull the trigger. Most of the general public who have a CCW or CPL think any self defense shooting is justified in their mind and will never see the inside of a jail cell. I am willing to bet 100% of them would be wrong. Those are the people that this class is designed for. A lot of my students have never held a gun never mind had to use one in self defense.
    Last edited by av8tr1; 01-01-2012 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Removed the question about permits for residents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    You only asked about MARKET. You did not ask about need, usefulness or value. I don't think, in general, the INTEREST is there among the general population. In order for a venture to succeed, there must not only be need, usefulness and value for the product, but also interest in having that need fulfilled amongst those that need the product.
    Good point.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by av8tr1 View Post
    This post is very timely for me. I am moving to Seattle in January. I am a fire arms instructor and teach both NRA certifications and Colorado, Wyoming and Florida CCW classes (Florida gives you 32 soon to be 33 states, Utah gives you 34). It's a large part of my income. Many states require some documented formal training for CCW application however my research shows me that Washington state does not. I'd be interested to know what the market is like out in Washington state for these sorts of classes.

    My class covers
    Licensing requirements
    Responsibilities of the concealed carry permit holder
    laws regarding use of force as a defense
    Use of force
    When confronted by law enforcement
    Reciprocity
    Different methods of carrying
    Gun safety
    Gun storage
    Other defensive options (Less than lethal Weapons)

    I won't go into what I think of the OC's experience with the other instructors course but I will say including personal or political agenda as part of the course is a major no no. And I am 1000% in agreement of the concept shoot to "eliminate the threat" but never "Shoot to kill". And I cover that extensively in my class, along with everything else the OP listed.

    I do however want to personally comment on the Serpa holsters. I am a big fan of open carry and most of my open carry devices are Serpa. I practice regularly with it and used it extensively during my time in the Army. At no point have I ever had a problem drawing with it both in practice and active threat situations. In point of fact the design specifically seems to reinforce the safe trigger finger outside of the trigger guard. When you press the release button to slide the fire arm out of the holster as long as you keep your finger straight you will find your trigger finger outside of the trigger guard and along the side of the gun below the slide. I tested this before posting to ensure I was correct with both my 1911 and Glock OC fire arms. While I have tested many of the open carry devices out on the market I have found the Serpa system to be best in both function and price. While this is an opinion it is based on years of experience in the field. I highly recommend the Serpa system to all my students who look to carry either OC or CC.
    http://www.firearmsacademy.com/

    http://insightstraining.com/

    http://www.wadesguns.com/classes.html

    http://www.wcwinc.org/club/educ3.htm

    http://www.interlakesporting.org/hunters_ed.htm

    http://www.rfgc.org/training/education.php

    http://www.championarms.com/

    Etc.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I would almost be in favor of mandatory training for a CPL
    I would strenuously disagree.

    If you want free classes to be available for CCW applicants, or for CCW holders that's a different thing entirely.

    It should not be funded by tax dollars, or taught bu state employees or contractors. Feel free to start such a class, I'd probably refer people to it. Fund it by donations, or get gun ranges to host it and cover expenses. Or see if the NRA will put on classes.

    For God's sake, keep the government and bureaucrats out of it.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 01-01-2012 at 03:54 PM.

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    Because of my OC activities I end up talking to a lot of people about self defence, I would guess that 99% of the CPL holders do not know the laws regarding carrying a fire arm open or concealed in their state. I would further venture to say more than 90% of the CPL holders do not train with their firearms on a regular basis.

    Most folks would benefit from a class. I will also say I have yet to take a class where the instructor did not teach something that was flat out incorrect and easily proven incorrect. Normally there is lots and lots of good instruction interjected with things like you have to field strip a fire arm to transport it in California, OC is unlawful, you must warn someone before you defend yourself, you must retreat, you have to give a statement to a cop and my all time favorite all muzzle loading fire arms are made in Italy they are cheap, dangerous to fire and not very accurate.

    I am generally horrified at how uneducated the general public is in reguards to their rights.

  18. #18
    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    I have a problem with the NRA being responsible for teaching the country gun classes. I do not mean to offend anyone here if they are a NRA instructor but from my experience about 98% of them are rude idiots. The majority of the NRA I instructors I have met have a even worse understanding and knowledge of the laws than police do. I have left more than one range because I got into it with a NRA instructor. One told me it was illegal according to federal law to carry a gun in your holster at a range unless you are a LEO. I made sure to make him specify, he told me it was a federal law and made me take my loaded gun out of its holster and carry it to my shooting station
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    I have a problem with the NRA being responsible for teaching the country gun classes. I do not mean to offend anyone here if they are a NRA instructor but from my experience about 98% of them are rude idiots. The majority of the NRA I instructors I have met have a even worse understanding and knowledge of the laws than police do. I have left more than one range because I got into it with a NRA instructor. One told me it was illegal according to federal law to carry a gun in your holster at a range unless you are a LEO. I made sure to make him specify, he told me it was a federal law and made me take my loaded gun out of its holster and carry it to my shooting station
    Yikes!! If you question the knowledge or abilities of any one claiming to be a NRA fire arms instructor I would contact the NRA training department. There have been cases where the NRA has revoked the certifications of an instructor for outrageous conduct or not following the guidelines of the NRA. I am unaware of any federal law that requires you to carry a gun in a holster at a range regardless of your job. If you have not already I would recommend that you contact the management of the gun range and discuss the incident with them. While the range may have a rule, the individual you spoke with is out of line claiming the federal rule and should be counseled on the matter. It would have been easy for the individual to just say "Range Rules" but to state it is a federal law is way beyond acceptable and is part of the problem with the lack of knowledge about gun laws in this country.

    Having said that, no one is perfect and you will always find something you disagree about with any instruction regardless of who the instructor is. My motto (and the one pounded into me by my instructors) is you are always learning. I learn from every class I teach. I personally do not go into a class expecting to know it all. It is my hope that all who take up the responsibility to teach go into the job humble and not arrogant know it all's.

    There are good instructors and bad instructors out there. I am sorry you have met some bad ones. If you question the abilities of anyone who claims to be an instructor from the NRA I suggest you get their info (Name and if possible certification number) and contact the training department.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    ... The majority of the NRA I instructors I have met have a even worse understanding and knowledge of the laws than police do....
    Blame the instructor, not the NRA. The NRA requires that the legal sections of their approved classes be taught by attorneys or other individuals that are specifically authorized by the State to discuss the legal aspects of firearms usage. Please be more proactive about calling the NRA about these renegade instructors. There are many instructors out there that get their NRA certifications, not because they want to teach the NRA classes, but because of the curb-appeal of the "NRA Instructor" title to the general shooting public.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Well, I am 2 for 4. My 1851 Navy was rather inexpensive and made in Italy. It is very safe and very surprisingly accurate!
    That instructor was a piece of work, he was also the manager of the Ventura CA police pistol range. He may have still been upset because I caught a bird of paradise plant on fire with my replica Colt Walker a few weeks prior to taking the class. Because I was shooting a muzzle loader he put me on the end lane, the plant was growing about 10 feet down range up against a masonery wall and was the only living thing besides grass forward of the shooting line until it caught on fire.

    Back on topic kinda, this guy was a great example of teaching his opinion rather than facts.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Well, I am 2 for 4. My 1851 Navy was rather inexpensive and made in Italy. It is very safe and very surprisingly accurate!
    Hmmm.......My 1851 confederate clones were made in the good 'ol USA. Some Uberti imported parts, US made Frames, and assembled in Hamden, CT. Not sure about original cost, but one apparently was a Commemorative. I would love to shoot them but my indoor range won't let me.
    ( something mumbled about catching targets on fire.....)

    Maybe I need to come up North and we can have a little Union and Confederate competition between ourselves.

    [my apologies for a slightly OT post]
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: Washington didn't use his right to free speech to defeat the British, he shot them.
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  23. #23
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    Ask them for their credentials. All NRA instructors, RSO's,etc have credentials issued to them once they have qualified in their particular discipline. Then notify NRA.
    Last edited by Trigger Dr; 01-02-2012 at 01:02 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by av8tr1 View Post
    I bet 75% of the concealed carry public do not know what to do when confronted by a threat beyond draw and pull the trigger. Most of the general public who have a CCW or CPL think any self defense shooting is justified in their mind and will never see the inside of a jail cell. I am willing to bet 100% of them would be wrong.
    And a 4, 6, or 8 hour class is going to change this, how? Considering the amount of "War Stories" and extraneous material discussed in many of these classes the actual teaching time is reduced to much less than what's necessary to actually get the brain into learning mode.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    While I agree that such a course should NOT be required by law, I live where it is. I also teach these courses. I can tell you that many people express how glad they are to know the information we teach.

    So, the obvious answer is to make such REAL KNOWLEDGE about laws and firearms (you know, EVERYDAY items) just as much a part of school curriculum as readin', 'ritin', and 'rithmetic. But then, I've felt that way about my trade as an electrician, too. I've seen so many people dangerously ignorant about the electrical system that is a part of every home in America. How are the basics of stuff like that not something to teach in school?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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