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Thread: is it legal to open carry or conceal carry a knife with double edge in virginia?

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    is it legal to open carry or conceal carry a knife with double edge in virginia?

    hello world! welcome to the open carry forum!
    Last edited by opencarrypalmtrees; 04-26-2012 at 09:13 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Maybe. If it looks like a "dirk", a short, double-edged short sword or long knife with a point designed as a stabbing weapon, then the answer is "no". Note that I didn't say it IS a dirk, but is LIKE a dirk. The concealed weapon statute prohibits dirks, bowie knives, ballistic knives, switchblades and razors and things that are "like" any of those. Open carry should be ok, but it's illegal to transfer possession of it to a minor.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Maybe.
    That word comes up too often in response to knife law questions.

    I sure would like to see our knife laws improved.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    That word comes up too often in response to knife law questions.

    I sure would like to see our knife laws improved.

    +1000

    I talked about it in another thread but ran into a police officer while getting my oil changed and asked him about knife laws. He told me four fingers was what they generally go by. So if your knife was longer than four fingers width they would try to charge you with concealing a weapon. Since Virginia doesn't have a CWP it is open interpretation as to what a "weapon" is. I saw in another thread that a man was charged with carrying a steak knife and got off because even though it was longer than some it wasn't considered a weapon. Any other court could have gone the other way with that ruling.

    I think constitutional carry of "arms" is needed to get big brother out of the business of private individuals. Their rules for knives, just like guns only disarms law abiding people, and causes normally law abiding people to sometimes cross the law inadvertantly. Criminals won't care about any law.

    There are already stiffer penalties for assault/battery with a weapon. Make them stiffer if they want but don't make it a crime simply to possess/carry some form of weapon with no criminal intent.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 01-01-2012 at 07:37 PM.

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    Generally, I agree completely with your policy observations.

    There is no length requirement per se for violation of the concealed weapon statute - there is a length requirement for possession on school property (I think it's "not more than three inches", but I can never remember whether it's "not equal to or greater than" or "not less than" or what) - and dirks and bowie knives, which are prohibited for concealed carry are sort of loosely defined by length, though shape of the blade is more important. A folding knife of any length that will fit in your pocket is generally ok.

    I've heard this thing about "constitutional carry" a lot, and have never quite figured it out - the constitutions of the U.S. and Virginia both have provisions that ensure that individuals have an absolute right to carry weapons with no restrictions at all. Problem as I see it is getting the courts to enforce the provisions that already exist.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Generally, I agree completely with your policy observations.

    There is no length requirement per se for violation of the concealed weapon statute - there is a length requirement for possession on school property (I think it's "not more than three inches", but I can never remember whether it's "not equal to or greater than" or "not less than" or what) - and dirks and bowie knives, which are prohibited for concealed carry are sort of loosely defined by length, though shape of the blade is more important. A folding knife of any length that will fit in your pocket is generally ok.

    I've heard this thing about "constitutional carry" a lot, and have never quite figured it out - the constitutions of the U.S. and Virginia both have provisions that ensure that individuals have an absolute right to carry weapons with no restrictions at all. Problem as I see it is getting the courts to enforce the provisions that already exist.
    User it is "less than" three inches which eliminates all the 3" blades and leaves you with limited selection.

    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...cod+18.2-308.1

    A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches

    ETA: Also in Section C they define any knife having a blade length of 3" or longer as a weapon.

    I am for constitutional carry which emphasizes the "shall not be infringed" section of the 2A. All federal restrictions should not exist period since it may be a tyrannical government we would be fighting against. When you get to the states, they have more power under the 10th amendment. In Virginia since our state constitution (used as an example for federal) has similar language there should be no state laws about bearing arms. So I would argue that requiring a CHP to carry a gun is unconstitutional already. Banning CC of a dirk, bowie knife is unconstitutional, etc. Other states may vary depending on how their constitution is written.

    Section 13. Militia; standing armies; military subordinate to civil power. http://legis.state.va.us/Laws/search...ution.htm#1S13
    That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 01-02-2012 at 09:58 AM.

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    I hate the knife laws here just because you can't get a definitive answer on them. The it looks like this type of knife is pointless. Ask a younger person if they know what a dirk is. A lot may know Bowie knife but some of the other terms aren't as well known. The 2nd was not just about firearms. I believe there were still some people fighting back then with swords.

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uber_Olafsun View Post
    I hate the knife laws here just because you can't get a definitive answer on them. The it looks like this type of knife is pointless. Ask a younger person if they know what a dirk is. A lot may know Bowie knife but some of the other terms aren't as well known. The 2nd was not just about firearms. I believe there were still some people fighting back then with swords.
    knife puns...

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    knife puns...
    Yep! You have to be pretty sharp to come up with them!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    knife puns...
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Yep! You have to be pretty sharp to come up with them!
    I get the point.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I get the point.
    That one cuts deep.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    That one cuts deep.
    Grape is always on the cutting edge of jokes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Grape is always on the cutting edge of jokes.
    Ya, but that one is just walking on a thin edge.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Ya, but that one is just walking on a thin edge.
    If it wasn't, it would be pretty dull here.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If it wasn't, it would be pretty dull here.
    Makes me so glad(ius).
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Makes me so glad(ius).
    Okay, that one's a stretch. Maybe you should bow(ie) out of the pun contest.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 01-02-2012 at 06:38 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Okay, that one's a stretch. Maybe you should bow(ie) out of the pun contest.
    I'm in it to hilt - don't want to drop or clip the point, tang it all. Would rather Finnish it.

    Puntest? Business is slow today.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    To give some comment on the OP's question, I saw ALL KINDS of things at the gun show that, AFAIK were illegal to have.

    o Brass knuckle knives (guess you could own them at home as 'collectable');
    o Belt buckle knives;
    o Police length telescoping batons (32" and 24");
    o Balisongs (and with double edged blades (half sharpened);
    o Out the front switchblades;
    o Auto-knives;
    o Incendiary sabot shotgun loads;
    o Saps (iron filled?);
    o Sap gloves (not sure if that was what I saw, it was crowded);
    o Ballistic vests (kevlar bullet resisting) which felons could buy with no ID;
    o Silencer building books;
    o Razorblade knives (not a holder, but a knife blade with a straight razor shape/edge;
    o Lock picking kits.


    Now many of these things you could have in your house, and not carry or at least not have in your pocket, but even with police presence, vendors had these items (and more).

    The TRULY illegal - certain auto conversion items, silencers, very high intensity lasers, less than 18" shotguns, bump keys, I did not see. (I'm using truly illegal a bit sarcastically and IDK what that means, IANAL). I'm doing some guessing. I've asked vendors 'is this legal' and they all said yes, just don't carry it when you're burglarizing a house.

    So you wonder where they draw the line.

    I was joking with my friend, I wonder what the state police think when someone comes out with so many guns they look like that cartoon I posted. Even I was bug-eyed at what a couple female buyers had in their carts.(*)

    My CHL instructor said the LEOs like for Law-abiding citizens to have firearms.


    (*)(I wonder if a female with a huge arsenal walking out isn't buying for their guy friend(s).)
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 01-02-2012 at 09:10 PM.
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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    To give some comment on the OP's question, I saw ALL KINDS of things at the gun show that, AFAIK were illegal to have.


    The TRULY illegal - certain auto conversion items, silencers, very high intensity lasers, less than 18" shotguns, bump keys, I did not see.
    Full Autos and Sound Suppressors (Silencers) are legal to possess in the Commonwealth as long as they are registered with ATF and with the VSP.
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    Full Autos and Sound Suppressors (Silencers) are legal to possess in the Commonwealth as long as they are registered with ATF and with the VSP.
    What does that have to do with things sold at gun shows? Are you implying that the ATF and VSP can register these items (if you buy them) over the phone/computer?

    Dealers have a dealer's license and might be able to sell them, but I don't know how they'd accomplish a 'sale' at a gun show. I've seen silencers in a glass case at a Tactical store, which you prob. bring in your ATF license thingie to buy.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    Full Autos and Sound Suppressors (Silencers) are legal to possess in the Commonwealth as long as they are registered with ATF and with the VSP.
    While we're at it ODA, these are also perfectly legal and before you start Badger, CITE!

    o Belt buckle knives;
    o Police length telescoping batons (32" and 24");
    o Balisongs (and with double edged blades (half sharpened);
    o Incendiary sabot shotgun loads;
    o Ballistic vests (kevlar bullet resisting) which felons could buy with no ID;
    o Silencer building books;
    o Razorblade knives (not a holder, but a knife blade with a straight razor shape/edge;
    o Lock picking kits.
    very high intensity lasers, less than 18" shotguns, bump keys, I did not see.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    To give some comment on the OP's question, I saw ALL KINDS of things at the gun show that, AFAIK were illegal to have.

    o Brass knuckle knives (guess you could own them at home as 'collectable');
    o Belt buckle knives;
    o Police length telescoping batons (32" and 24");
    o Balisongs (and with double edged blades (half sharpened);
    o Out the front switchblades;
    o Auto-knives;
    o Incendiary sabot shotgun loads;
    o Saps (iron filled?);
    o Sap gloves (not sure if that was what I saw, it was crowded);
    o Ballistic vests (kevlar bullet resisting) which felons could buy with no ID;
    o Silencer building books;
    o Razorblade knives (not a holder, but a knife blade with a straight razor shape/edge;
    o Lock picking kits.


    Now many of these things you could have in your house, and not carry or at least not have in your pocket, but even with police presence, vendors had these items (and more).

    The TRULY illegal - certain auto conversion items, silencers, very high intensity lasers, less than 18" shotguns, bump keys, I did not see. (I'm using truly illegal a bit sarcastically and IDK what that means, IANAL). I'm doing some guessing. I've asked vendors 'is this legal' and they all said yes, just don't carry it when you're burglarizing a house.

    So you wonder where they draw the line.

    I was joking with my friend, I wonder what the state police think when someone comes out with so many guns they look like that cartoon I posted. Even I was bug-eyed at what a couple female buyers had in their carts.(*)

    My CHL instructor said the LEOs like for Law-abiding citizens to have firearms.


    (*)(I wonder if a female with a huge arsenal walking out isn't buying for their guy friend(s).)
    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    Full Autos and Sound Suppressors (Silencers) are legal to possess in the Commonwealth as long as they are registered with ATF and with the VSP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    What does that have to do with things sold at gun shows? Are you implying that the ATF and VSP can register these items (if you buy them) over the phone/computer?

    Dealers have a dealer's license and might be able to sell them, but I don't know how they'd accomplish a 'sale' at a gun show. I've seen silencers in a glass case at a Tactical store, which you prob. bring in your ATF license thingie to buy.
    Most of the items you list Badger are not illegal to own, most are not illegal to carry. Your opinions expressed give the distinct impression of regularly questionable (from a legal standpoint) activity at VA gun shows.....and you do so w/o cites as to the "illegal" items - VA gun shows are IMO quite well run.

    Not all items "sold" at shows are delivered that day. Other items are simply being picked up there after the process was completed prior. Vendors who display/offer such items are not doing so to circumvent the law.

    Perhaps more troubling is an on going attitude that would seem to border that of an anti proponent of our rights. If you see an illegal activity, by all means report it, but do not cry "wolf" when none is in evidence. Do not suggest that someone with multiple purchases is like a cartoon character.

    The overall impression given is those certain items should not be offered for sale to the general public and that any attempt to do so is wrong. Strange position for an alleged proponent of our RKBA.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
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    § 18.2-311. Prohibiting the selling or having in possession blackjacks, etc.

    If any person sells or barters, or exhibits for sale or for barter, or gives or furnishes, or causes to be sold, bartered, given or furnished, or has in his possession, or under his control, with the intent of selling, bartering, giving or furnishing, any blackjack, brass or metal knucks, any disc of whatever configuration having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, or like weapons, such person shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor. The having in one's possession of any such weapon shall be prima facie evidence, except in the case of a conservator of the peace, of his intent to sell, barter, give or furnish the same. (Emphasis added.)
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The overall impression given is those certain items should not be offered for sale to the general public and that any attempt to do so is wrong. Strange position for an alleged proponent of our RKBA.
    I think you're jumping to a conclusion. I'm just looking around and wondering. I think:

    1. People that buy those things are probably just 'gear collectors'. I mean how many buy an knuckle knife and then use it except to play in their house, or fantasize?
    2. I've never 'reported' any vendors or asked any LEOs 'is this legal';
    3. I don't think I expressed a like or dislike of anyone owning any weapon and it's funny how a 'scary looking knife' is prohibited (like a double edged out the front switchblade or autoknife), but a big Kabar is fine, worn on the belt, or even mostly covered up. I couldn't easily kill you with a 3" OTF auto knife (unless it was a super strong spring), but you could fall down and kill yourself with a 6" Kabar.
    4. There is no detector or pat down, and I see a lot of people letting their guns get tag tied, but I'm SURE people walked through with CC. Don't the organizer know that only the nice folk are bothering to let the guys at the desk struggle with their guns and put a tagtie through the barrel?
    5. I'm discussing my 'WONDER' not with ANTIs, but with fellow RTBA guys, so there's no 'betrayal' of the cause. If I went to an ANTI site and posted outrage at what was being sold THEN it would be puzzling from a RTBA supporter.

    IMO, the most dangerous thing in the show was the Green Laser Viridian table, where the guy had several blue guns with a green laser on them and kids were coming up and pointing them and not even knowing they'd turned them on, and people were getting shined in the face (Not sure if their laser is energetic enough to cause perm damage).
    ==========
    So in conclusion, it looks like you're trying to find reason to paint me as a betrayer of the cause, because I don't think you're that unintelligent. I think you're wasting your time, because your comments are lame and weak, but that's just me. One can post informative commentary one can start good threads or one can be an intrusive parasite, sniping at everyone else's intelligent discourse and never posting much original. Why don't such people take up stamp collecting? It's gotta be better for one's blood pressure. If one has forum rules about having devil's advocate posts, or there's a rule about being close to breaking a rule but not ACTUALLY breaking a rule, then I haven't seen them.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  25. #25
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    What does that have to do with things sold at gun shows? Are you implying that the ATF and VSP can register these items (if you buy them) over the phone/computer?

    Dealers have a dealer's license and might be able to sell them, but I don't know how they'd accomplish a 'sale' at a gun show. I've seen silencers in a glass case at a Tactical store, which you prob. bring in your ATF license thingie to buy.
    Full auto's and suppressed weapons are found for sale at gun shows. A deposit is taken and the ATF forms are given to the prospective buyer to be filled out by the Chief LEO of his township. Of course the transaction cannot be completed that day, but only after the forms are completed and the FBI checks are made. Once possession is taken, the buyer must register the firearm or suppressor with the VSP.

    You said:"The TRULY illegal - certain auto conversion items, silencers, very high intensity lasers, less than 18" shotguns, bump keys, I did not see."

    Just because you didn't see them, doesn't mean they weren't there. And BTW, Short Barrelled Shotguns are legal in Virginia too, and they are for sale at gun shows and I am a former Title III Dealer.
    Last edited by ODA 226; 01-02-2012 at 11:52 PM.
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